Optimising Plant Fertiliser Dosing

Author Topic: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing  (Read 8352 times) 31 replies

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Offline Helen

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2018, 11:44:55 PM »
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I use the external filter setting, with the 60% extra capacity. I'm happy doing this because I have so many plants in my tank which significantly increase the CO2 / O2 exchange and use up nitrates and phosphates.

But I also try to choose fish that swim at different levels and am therefore conscious of how many fish I have at each level. At the moment I have dwarf rainbow fish, which are surface swimmers (top third of tank), rasboras which are middle swimmers, fiveband barbs swim in the bottom third and kuhli loaches which are substrate dwellers. (I also have a BN Plec, who is outside the layers, but who  is also pretty messy) The fish don't always stay in 'their' areas, but by planning my inhabitants  by their swimming behaviour, I find I don't really have empty parts of the tank when other parts are really busy (except occasionally, like feeding time). This is also why I don't have as many fish as I'd like at the moment because I've planned my inhabitants and am struggling to vary the plan without breaking my layers concept. At the same time as choosing fish suitable to my water parameters.

The cc is a guide. It'll take a bit of practice, but you will learn how you need to adapt it to fit your tank parameters.

Also, I've yet to find a guide that takes into account the beneficial effects of live plants in the tank.

Offline TopCookie

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2018, 01:39:39 AM »
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Also, I've yet to find a guide that takes into account the beneficial effects of live plants in the tank.

+1 on that point...!!!  It's a shame though, as they do consider plants as virtually acting like filters, so I would imagine that having lots of plants must surely make quite a considerable difference...?

Offline Matt

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2018, 06:18:19 AM »
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+1 from me too

My reasons are more aesthetic and welfare related... I am always conscious that I am a zoo keeper in this hobby and overfilling a small cage of animals is something I'm very conscious of not doing.... I have never been beyond 85% stocked when internal filter is selected. The tank also starts to look very full to me by this point. In fact im only at 60% now and my plans take me to 70%.

I'm not claiming my fish are necessarily better looked after than anyone else's here by the way, just that I strive to make sure they have the best possible lives as we all do and this is something that matters to be... I have no idea if it matters to the fish in reality!

I feel like I've had a rant here which was not my intention... Just sharing my theories on things  :)

+1 on the layers thing also @Helen for the same reasons. I love bottom dwellers but always need to be careful that I have something for the top of the tank too or that would be wasted space and the bottom would be like a war zone with everyone struggling for territories etc.

Offline Helen

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2018, 08:39:46 AM »
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I was originally against keeping fish as I thought it cruel to contain a creature when in nature they have so much space. Then I spent a couple months scuba diving as part of reef conservation and watched fish (albeit marine) in their natural environment. And I realised that small fish don't know that they have so much space because they stay in a relatively small area. That was when I thought it might be nice to keep fish at home. So I looked to set up a micro environment. I originally wanted a south east Asian biotope, and chose plants and fish to suit. But I think that was perhaps a bit too ambitious for a newby fishkeeper, so I've gradually relaxed the boarders. Most of my fish and plants are Asian, but I've got the odd exception - Bertie my BN. But my aim is to still to create a micro environment where the fish and the plants balance each other for needs and clean up.

It took a while to find the balance, but I have since made major changes so I'm still in the process of working out what that new balance is. And it's not a static target, due to fish and plants growing, some of my fish are old aged so I am expecting deaths before I find my new sweet spot. I've not had any babies (in the tank!) yet, but that would also change the balance.

I used to think of 3 layers in the tank - top middle bottom. But since adding my fiveband barbs I've realised there is another layer, non benthic (free swimming) fish that live in the bottom third of the water column ie near the substrate but not on it. I've not yet worked out how that will affect the overall balance / aesthetic 'fullness' of the tank.

It's also worth remembering that we judge stock levels by fish length, but that isn't necessarily the best reflection of the effect a particular fish will have on the tank.

For example I have a BN Plec whose calculated size is 12cm. And kuhli loaches whose calculated size is 10cm. Their contribution to the balance in my tank is wildly different. Bertie is far more messy than his calculated stock size (even though he's an algae eater). A pair of BN Plecs is probably the most that my tank could sustain (24cm). But my kuhlis are long and thin and are more clean up crew than mess contributor. My tank could probably comfortably sustain about 15 if I didn't want any other benthic fish (150cm).

So there is a lot more to consider when finding the right stock for a particular tank than just the calculated stock %. (Which is why it is heavily emphasised that it is just a guide).

Ps @Matt I didn't read your post as a rant at all! Didn't consider it might be until you mentioned it.  ;)

Offline Sue

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2018, 12:19:47 PM »
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On the subject of the CC and filter type, increasing filtration does not increase the amount of fish you can keep, provided the filter is adequate for the size of tank. I suppose that you could say that an external effectively increases the volume of water by the amount of water inside the body of the filter but that is not much.

I think the basis of the CC saying that you can have more fish with increased filtration is old thinking. I joined the old incarnation of Thinkfish in 2006 and the CC said back then had tiers of filtration allowing for increasing stocking levels.
Stocking is now all about the size of the tank a species needs, the numbers a particular species needs etc. It is now known that doubling the shoal size of small tetras, for example, does not double the shoal's bioload because more numbers means less stressed fish, and the more stressed a fish is, the bigger the bioload.


It is my opinion that we should ignore the filter type and always select internal filter.

Offline Helen

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2018, 06:42:09 PM »
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Do you mean just use the standard internal filter on the CC, @Sue  and not the oversized internal?

Under the old thinking, why does a bigger filter mean more fish? Is it purely because of the ability to hold more bacteria?

I reckon my external filter holds about 2 litres of water. Which in 220l is negligible.

Offline Sue

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2018, 06:55:48 PM »
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Yes, I use 'standard' internal in the CC.

I've never understood why a larger filter was said to mean more fish allowed. The article on here says that larger filters can process more waste but I don't think this is true. Provided there are enough bacteria in the tank to 'eat' the ammonia made by the fish, and the nitrite made from that ammonia, filter size doesn't matter. The 'filter' bacteria live all over the tank not just in the filter. And of course there are countless other species of micro-organism that play their part in tank maintenance which live in the substrate.
The article on here says that a large external can process many times more waste than a standard internal. How?
The articles on here were written at least 12 years ago, probably more. Our understanding of what goes on inside a tank had leapt forwards a lot since then.

It is possible that the idea arose because the larger the filter the more flow there is, and more flow usually goes with better oxygenation of the water because it churns the water up better. And from there it was not a big leap to saying a large filter could process more waste.


Offline Helen

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2018, 07:29:54 PM »
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If I switch to an internal filter, my current tank capacity changes from from 46% to 74%.

But, I could double the number of rasbora I have and not increase the bioload.

If I add a new shoal of small fish, then I clearly would be increasing the bioload. But would any of the bioload be 'compensated' for because I already have shoaling fish?

Offline Helen

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2018, 07:36:20 PM »
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If the very original calculation was based on water surface area, increased circulation from an external filter would increase the relative surface area in terms of how much interface there is for gaseous exchange. Perhaps that's where it comes from?

What sort of effect on stocking capacity do you think planting is going to have? I would have thought it'd increase it, because the addition of plants does increase the waste removal.

Offline Sue

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2018, 07:39:53 PM »
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Yes it would. The more members of a shoal of a given species, the 'happier' they are. It is when fish are less 'happy' ie more stressed that they add more to the bioload. But that doesn't mean you can go mad and add a few hundred fish  ;D

And it only applies to small shoaling fish.


Yes, plants do increase water quality. With enough plants you don't actually need a filter  :o
I live on Teesside, home to a very large chemical industry which was once almost all owned by ICI. They pioneered the use of reed beds to clean industrial waste water before it was returned to the river.

Offline Andy The Minion

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2018, 09:21:16 PM »
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I have to admit to having been in both camps on the fish stocking discussion. When I started with a 200 litre tank I was discovering desirable fish around every corner. I found an article on stocking that made the argument that the 'historic' (1960's) stocking level that arrived at the original 1" per gallon or sq ft of surface area were based on gassious exchange at the surface in tanks that only ever had under gravel filters that also created adgitation at the surface. The logic went that this covered all of the 'other areas' for bacteria to colonise that modern tanks still have but the inclusion of pumps and porous media in filters provided more efficient convention and could therefore be factored into the biological processing area. Well this suited me at the time and I gradually increased my filter capacity and ended up with an external and took the 1.8cm/litre as the tank limit.
In practice I didn't I ever got there, I think I maxed out at 1.5cm/litre because the water tests were pushing me to twice weekly changes based on the rate of Nitrate increase and I could see it wasn't a sustainable level if I wanted low Nitrates.
However..... I still much prefer externals and wouldn't ever stop using them. Like the general vibe in the thread I don't use them to overstock although I do a proper measurement of water volume and include them in that. They don't reduce work either, I pre filter them so they don't accumulate gunk, I just like the fact that I can massively over specify the biological capacity. At work I would call it a large factor of safety for the bacteria - it just feels to me like the right thing to do.
Incidentally the argument that the surface area increaes if the water surface is agitated doesn't doesn't sound correct, it's more likely that the flow that is causes the agitation is exchanging the water in contact with the air constantly so a pump outlet angled up towards the surface that just ripples will be quite adequate.

Offline TopCookie

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Re: Optimising plant fertiliser dosing
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2018, 11:47:30 PM »
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Yes, I use 'standard' internal in the CC.....

Ah, what you say Sue certainly makes sense...  Just by judging on the level of detritus/mulm in the tank, that would suggest that in my set up, I'm far closer to being fully stocked than the CC suggests - especially with the external filter option selected...!!!

With this option, CC tells me 49% stocked, although I would immediately have to allow more on the grounds of having to substitute the Corydoras (even after fiddling numbers as best as possible)...

Switching to the "Internal" filter option gives me 79% stocked and actually a much more believable & logical figure... 

This still allows me to add just a few fish though, which is nice, and in the relative confidence that this should not present a problem if any new additions are picked wisely...  :)

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