Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Tank Plant Advice => Topic started by: Aquamaid on January 19, 2015, 04:43:55 PM
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I need some plant advice, i have wasted so much money on plants that just melt away, or that aren't even fully submersible, i want to stick to basics as in hardy plants that don't need more than 7hrs light a day, i have pond compost under sand and gravel, and two 39w T5s one pink, but as yet no ferts as tank is just cycled. I have lots of Java fern some planted some just floating around, i have Anubias Nana, and and some Java moss, i also have what i think is some form of Vallis and Anacharis, that looked dead but are i hope just re growing. I need some tall plants but not gigantic, i had a list but for one reason or another they are ruled out, oh tank is 18 to 20 inches deep. I'd like a form of Amazon Sword, a twisted Vallis, and a red and green Tiger Lotus, i really love Aponogeton Capuronii, but is it fully submersible? any suggestions would be welcome : )
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While the plants you mention might be OK, they're not necessarily the easiest and would probably not thrive under only 7 hours of light a day. Easy plants tend to be the ones that look like "weeds" to many people. I've found Amazon swords strange, they have grown well in two of my tanks, poorly in two and died in the others even though all the tanks were set up in the same way.
Tropical plants naturally receive 12 hours of daylight and will generally do better the closer to this they get. Many of the easier plants are not actually tropical and can do with less, while the Java fern, Java moss and Anubias are among those which can do with the least amount of light.
The Aponogeton should be fully submersible, but all of them are bulbs and tend to die back to the bulb for a rest from time to time which can leave things looking rather bare until they grow back.
I assume the plants which you said have melted away were in your old tank rather than the big one you have used pond compost in? If so, you should find that they do better in the new tank.
If plants do badly it could be lack of nutrients (unlikely with the compost layer and your hard water), not enough CO2 (fish will increase this) or not enough light.
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Thanks Richard, i think my plants are starting to pick up a bit in new tank, the lighing is quite bright, it's 2x 39w T5 HO
on for 6 or 7hrs, do i need Co2 do you think?
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In my opinion, CO2 should only be considered if all the other factors are OK, i.e. nutrients and light. You should be OK for nutrients with your compost base. Fish poo will add to this, though the more gravel cleaning you do, the less nutrients get through to the plants.
Fish are pretty efficient at producing CO2. One of the original ideas behind the "balanced aquarium" was that plants would use up the CO2 produced by the fish. As far as I can tell, your tank is still quite lightly stocked and as you add more fish and the existing fish grow, so they will produce more CO2. You also only have a relatively small number of plants and so they won't need that much CO2. As I remember you have hard water it is likely to have high carbonate hardness and most aquatic plants can also use the bicarbonate ions in the water instead of CO2.
There is always one limiting factor to plant growth and so if, for example, it is light then no matter how much extra CO2 you add will make no difference whatever unless you increase the light.
If you look here http://tropica.com/en/inspiration/ then you will find tanks that probably do need added CO2, very densely planted with difficult plants, very strong lighting, added nutrients and few, if any, fish. Plus a lot of work on an almost daily basis to keep them looking good. Not practical for most of us who like to keep fish without TOO much work.
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Whew, hopefully thats one more expense and worry avoided then.I never wanted dense planting just enough plants for fish to hide in and thrive. If i start getting algae problem i guess i will have to re think? Thank you Richard. :)
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I installed CO2 in my planted tank and I thought it made an obvious difference. But when I cut back on maintenance requirements, it was one of the first things to go (or not be renewed). While trying to identify the limiting factor in my tank, I discovered that I had v. low calcium and nitrates. So I now add calcium nitrate at water change, as well as ferropol and as long as I do my water changes frequently enough, the plants do very well. Last time I changed my light tubes, I went for one that was noticeably more yellow. I was really impressed with how much my limnophilia improved from this one change. So much so, I've removed most of it because it started to take over!
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I have a friend who has a very lush tank, (attached pic) it needs a bit of a trim, but he says he only uses easycarbo and a ferro iron fertilizer, although his lights are expensive set up i think. I think some of my plants have started to pick up,after a week of carbo and two fertilizer doses, so fingers crossed : )
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Wow, that's gorgeous. I'd need to increase my filtration considerably with that many plants obstructing the flow.
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Plants do as good a job as the filter, the more you have the less filtration you need.
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My tanks have just as much luxuriant growth as the one in the picture without any fertilisers, added CO2 or special lighting. Using more fish will provide plenty of fish poo fertiliser and CO2. But you have to be patient, it takes time for plants to grow and some are much slower than others. Whichever method you choose, plants will continue to grow after they reach the level of growth you want and will then need some "pruning". An aquarium is a living system, like a garden, not, like a room that you decorate with inanimate objects and which stays the same until you want to change it.
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Yet another degree of patience needed then :o lol
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I gues I meant the flow, rather than the filtration. I've already supplemented with a small pump to improve overall circulation and would probably have to upgrade that. I have a tank with a drilled base so the flow from the filter is all at one end of the tank. I have discovered there is a sweet point in my tank with max plants and still sufficient flow everywhere.
I reckon it took me the best part of a year to get my plants how I wanted them. Then I was so used to tweaking that I couldn't stop and my ultimate design changed!
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Well i think i can wait a bit longer then in that case ;D
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Just a good news update, a fortnight into carbo and profito and plants are perking up no end, vallis is greener, and tiger lotus bulbs are putting on a hell of a spurt so i'm well pleased :))
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Does it actually say what "carbo" contains?
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If we're talking about the same product - EasyCarbo, or liquid carbon, apparently it contains gluteraldehyde which is usually used to sterilise medical and dental equipment. It's also supposed to kill algae. I would check it with the producer though, because I got this info second hand.
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Ingredients are not listed (not sure if that is legal?)
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Either they want to keep it a secret or it's something so simple that you could buy the ingredients much more cheaply. I know they call it "liquid carbon" which is something I doubt you would find in a chemistry textbook.
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:-\ Mmm is a bit suspicous isn't it, well i shall finish the bottle obviously, but as to wether i buy another, i don;t know?
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I vaguely remember a conversation about liquid carbon, a long time ago. Think it was possibly a post on the previous incarnation of this site. I will see if I can dredge up the memory.
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Thanks Helen, i'm now dosing the easycarbo every other day, make it go further, and when bottle is finished will give it a rest, see what happens, :)
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Plants, like all living things, require carbon. Typically in our tanks this carbon comes from two sources. Preferentially, plants use carbon dioxide. It is easier for the chemistry, apparently. Failing easy access to carbon dioxide, most plants can use carbonate ions from dissolved chemicals, as a source of carbon. So-called "liquid carbon" provides these carbonate ions.
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Oooh so you think it's worth carrying on with it then SteveS? well something is working, plants are actually growing lol
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AM
EasyCarbo, Excel etc are Gluteraldehyde mixes.
It is MUCH cheaper to buy it neat and dilute it. 30ml of Glut to 970ml of de-ionised water.
Keep it in a dark place (I have mine in a black HDPE bottle)
Dose it BEFORE lights on, if practicable.
1ml per 40L or 50L of tank water.
If you overdose it too much it can be toxic to fish. Try not to get the raw, undiluted Glut on your skin- it will stain it brown. Prepare the mix in a well ventilated room (I did mine on the patio).
Decant in to small 100ml black HDPE bottles to allow easy use of an appropriate syringe (both found on ebay).
Dose it EVERY day, as it has a half life of 10.4 hours (or something like that).
Hope this helps!
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Is worth carrying on? Try discontinuing the easycarbo only and see if it has a negative effect. If so, yes it is worth carrying on. I have found these things to be a matter of trial and error. The key is to alter one thing at a time.
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Aquamaid has hard water and so one would imagine it already contains plenty of carbonates.
With hard water and plenty of fish, I doubt if adding any other carbon source would help me, my plants already grow as fast as I can cope with.
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Oh dear, i'm getting very disheartened now, i had thought my plants were starting to thrive, but now i have bad case of yellow/brown diatom coating on everthing and it looks like most plants are starting to melt, it's a sparse and horrid looking tank now :'( I decreased the easy carbo to ever other day and to me it is sitting in gloom most of the day, i only have lights on about 5hr, so not sure what is going wrong.
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I really don't think 5 hours a day is anywhere near enough. Plants use light to grow, it's their source of energy, if they don't have enough they won't grow. Plants outdoors in the wild would never receive that little light. My lights are on for 10 hours, tropical plants are used to 12 hours a day, 365 days a year.
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I'm getting too much conflicting advice Richard, i was told with my 2x39w bulbs that 6hrs a day is too much and too bright, ive moved the bulb shade thing around to block a bit of light, all seems too dark to me and what with sparse planting and this awfull brown diatom stuff, it's very unpleasant.
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Hi Aquamaid,
Don't get too disheartened, its all a learning experience. You've made cracking fish choices and I'm sure you'll get your plants right sooner rather than later.
Brown diatom algae is often found in a new aquarium, usually when the lighting is too low or too high. I'd go with 8 hours for now and see how you go. Also lay off of the fertilisers if you're using them and food too, as excess nitrogen is another common cause.
As Richard has said on many occasions, there is usually one factor that limits plant growth. As you've bought the Easycarbo, I'd stick with the recommended dose until the bottle has finished as this will ensure that CO2 is not the limiting factor. The fish will be providing most of the other nutrient requirements, provided you're not going mad with your gravel vac!
You might want to get some very easy growing plants to begin with to see how they do. Anacharis, Cryptocoryne, Hygrophila polysperma and Wisteria are all pretty easy adaptable plants that are also algae inhibitors. They're usually cheap and easy to find. Once they are established you could try something a bit more adventurous.
The diatoms are pretty easy to shift as algae go. Otos and Nerites would gobble it up happily!
I am by no means an expert, but think it's best to start small/easy and work up from there. Good luck!
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Hi C K i'm not sure my stock of fish are doing much in the "poo" department, unlike my platys, and yes i do maybe over gravel/sand clean, and i'm dosing the profito fert once a week. I have Anacharis that was doing well but is either covered in the diatom bloom or is melting, cant tell at the mo, some sort of bacopa that is spindley with very small yellow leaves, some sort of grass that actually might be surviving and everthing else is alive but covered in what looks like cocoa powder :( lol
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Oh dear... My plants seem to be doing okay for the most part, though my platies have taken to munching my Anarchis, only planted it Sunday and half the leaves are gone!
If you just want something that will grow, go for some Hygrophila polysperma. I have had butcher mine because they were taking over a corner of my tank. When I pulled them up I could not believe the roots they had. They were everywhere! Very easy to take cuttings too, so you can quickly cover a large area of your tank relatively quickly.
Up the lighting to 8 hours and reduce the fertilizer and I'm sure those 'orrible diatoms will be gone soon enough.
At least the grass is doing well!!!
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Anybody who suggests that 6 hours a day is too much light obviously has no knowledge whatsoever of plant physiology!
With 2 x 39w = total of 78 watts on a 232 litre tank gives about 0.34 watts per litre, which is considered a fairly low-light tank. More difficult plants are considered to require 0.5 or more, the most difficult need 1 watt per litre. Your lighting is by no means high for the size of the tank and I doubt if you will ever get good growth unless you considerably increase the time that it is on.
As you have hard water and put pond compost in under the substrate, they should have no lack of nutrients for now, plus the fish will be producing nitrates via the filter, though large water changes will reduce that quickly. You have also been using Easycarbo and so I reckon light must be the limiting factor. Don't expect quick results though as plants take time to establish and start growing strongly, some more than others. There are those who recommend starting with 5 hours per day to combat possible algae growth in the early stages (up to 3 weeks), but that isn't a long term option, it needs to be increased to 8 hours, I prefer more but don't mind algae.
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Thank you Richard, i did wonder as the tank manufacturers (Aqua One) installed the 2 x 39w i assumed it must be suitable for some if not all plant growth and i am reluctant to cover or remove a bulb, but have got confused as to wether it is light wattage or period of light on that may be the problem. Ive only had fish in for two months, so i hope it is just a matter of things still settling down and getting the balance right?
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Start with increasing the length of time the lights are on for AM, all growing plants need light so they can photosynthesise . If I may ask why do you have them on for such a short period of time?
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Hi Fiona, i think we have been here before lol but it still isn't sinking in with me, i constantly being told i have "too much light" as im using liquid carbo Co2, but i have what the tank was made with, 2x39w bulbs so when i'm told to "decrease the lights i pressume it is the length of time they are on, as i aint taking a bulb out. Sorry to be so dim, but i just can't grasp the concept of what the plants need, and what to do to grow healthy plants without lots of brown diatom algae stuff, less wattage, less hours, less Co2, more of everything ? ???
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But who are the people constantly telling you that you have too much light? Nobody here, I think.
You wouldn't expect a cabbage, grass or any other plant to grow with 5 hours light and there is no reason why aquatic plants should do so either. You need your plants to grow quickly so that they can outcompete the diatoms. Light is the only source of energy that plants can use and so they need enough to grow. In areas of the world where the hours of daylight fall below 5, e.g. in the northern winter, plants cease growing, it isn't enough.
Your lighting is standard for the size of tank so don't think about changing it, it's suitable for all the plants we normally grow except for the difficult ones, but only if you leave it on for long enough.
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But who are the people constantly telling you that you have too much light? Nobody here, I think.
I'm curious who is telling you that too!
Your lighting is standard for the size of tank so don't think about changing it, it's suitable for all the plants we normally grow but only if you leave it on for long enough.
Your plants need at least 8hrs of light so take the shading off and leave the lights on for longer and see what happens in a weeks time.
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Thanks, it's water change day tomorrow so i will take the pebbles out and scrub them, not sure what to do about plant leaves, and try full lighting on for 7-8 hrs, so now its wether to carry on with fertz and carbo, fish are rather small at present so not a lot of fertz from them :-[
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I'd leave the lights on for 8hrs + if I was you AM, the plants will thank you for it and by all means use the fertilisers.
PS: you still haven't said who told you that you had too much light.
I wonder if it's the long lost twin of an idiot in St Albans MA who told me not to worry about water quality with regards to my betta tank as bettas live in puddles in the wild ::)
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I see the article on lighting for plants on Thinkfish suggests keeping them on for 12 - 14 hours per day ...................
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My lights are on for 12hrs a day usually, sometimes a bit longer over the weekend.
I must post a piccie of my 200L I'm quite proud of the planting in it. I use root tabs under some of the trickier plants but on the whole rely on whatever nutrition is in the soil substrate and fish poop.
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I guess i will have to sit the diatoms out then and hope more lighting will grow plants that will starve the diatoms is that right? i
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Diatoms are algae and algae essentially use the same things as other plants i.e. light, carbon dioxide and various elements. If your plants are not growing strongly they will not be using the fertilisers you are adding which means the nutrient elements are available for the diatoms which may be a contributory factor to the diatom problem. That's why, if you think fertiliser is really necessary, it is generally better to use root tabs which make the nutrients available to the plant roots rather than adding fertiliser to the water where it can also be used by the diatoms.
Diatoms are very rarely a problem in established tanks, though the same can't be said for other algae unfortunately ............
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Algae is most fish keepers nightmare, but only because it looks unsightly. Fish and other tank occupiers have no bother with it. As algae needs the same things to grow as plants, it is pretty much impossible to have a tank without algae. However, certain types of algae are able to out compete plants when one of the growth factors (light, carbon dioxide, nutrients) is limited. Diatoms generall thrive in new tanks with high nutrients and low lighting, so that would suggest that you need your lights on for longer. However, leave your lights on for too long and your plants will deplete the CO2 in the tanks and things like black beard algae, which can outcompete plants for nutrients when CO2 is low,will appear.
It's all about finding the balance in your tank. Adding co2 and fertilizer will allow you to leave the lights on longer without running into problems like black beard algae, however if you add them and the lighting isn't sufficient and there are excess nutrients and co2 in the tank , then you are likely to run into other algal issues.
8 to 10 hours a day of lighting should be enough to get adequate plant growth. I'd throw some nerites in the tank to munch on your diatoms. Search "neritina " on eBay and you can get 10 delivered for under a tenner.
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Have you read the articles on this site about plant maintenance? They are a good, basic summary of all the things that you've been told. You will start to understand why different people have apparently different ideas - for example all my comments are from my experience of living in a slightly soft water area, which isn't the most common water type for planted aquariums, and means I have to put in a bit more effort. But having done lots of research I've learned how to get the best out of it for my tank. You'll get there too, but it does take some time.
I think at the beginning, I also had problems with brown diatoms coating and apparently harming my plants. But they may have just sorted themselves out and didn't actually kill any of my plants. The Amazon swords were definitely the worst affected and I've still got 3 out of the 4 I originally planted. The 4th one only went because they got too big (IMO) and I pulled it out.
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Thanks Helen, i will have a read. I'm basically just waiting to see if anything is going to thrive, somethings seem to be melting at the base, but green nearer the top of the tank, it's all a bit sparse still, but im not buying more till i know these will live.
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Beware! Some plants will melt away when you transplant them and then grow back. Cryptocorynes are particularly noted for this effect; It's called 'Crypt Melt'.
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A lot of aquatic plants don't like to have their roots messed with. As Steve said, crypts are notorious for this. I have recently moved quite a few crypts in my tank and have been keeping an eye out for them melting. I have had crypts melt in my tank before, it's pretty nasty looking, but you don't even get debris to clean up. The leaves just kind of disappear. But if you leave the root base undisturbed, they will be fine.
The reason I was moving crypts in my tank is because after they melted they multiplied, but didn't settle where I wanted them to.