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Bio Liquid Co2

Author Topic: Bio liquid co2  (Read 2785 times)

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Offline Matt

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Bio liquid co2
« on: July 16, 2018, 10:58:11 PM »
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I've been noticing some new liquid co2 products coming onto the market that don't use guteraldehyde... they claim to use natural ingredients and therefore be healthier for the fish (guteraldehyde being what they use to clean surgical instruments and a strong nerve toxin). I can make out the science behind them thoug... can anyone with a better brain than me help?
http://dennerle.com/en/products/aquarium/plant-care/special-fertilization/carbo-elixier-bio

Offline Sue

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2018, 09:56:15 AM »
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It still doesn't say what's in it  >:(  This isn't really much help
Quote
The product contains selected active ingredients that are present in plant metabolism in this or a similar form
Even a solution of glucose (the end point of photosynthesis) would be an active ingredient present in plant metabolism.
I have studied biochemistry at university and although we concentrated on animal biochemistry, I can tell you that metabolic pathways include a lot of biochemicals. My biochem text book is in the attic somewhere - I would go and get it down only my husband is currently painting all the woodwork in the hall/stairs/landing, including the loft access  :)


It does make one comment further down, though.
Quote
There is also a second effect: All organic substances, that is to say those that are carbon based, are bacterially degradable. The filter bacteria feed on them. In the end all that remains is carbon dioxide (CO2) and water.

There are 2 types of tanks - those that contain fish with some plants and those that contain plants with a few fish. It is the latter that needs all the supplements we can throw at them. These tanks are for underwater gardeners and the fish are very much in second place.
The first type is where fish are the main reason for the tank and the plants are just there as scenery. This type rarely needs more than just a bit of fertiliser. All the fish poo and uneaten food is broken down in the substrate. We all know that this makes ammonia, and is one reason that nitrate can get high if the tank is not cleaned enough. But the carbon in all that poo and uneaten food is turned into CO2. A fully stocked tank does not really need added CO2, particularly tanks like mine which have slow growing plants.




None of that helps us with the Dennerle product though.

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2018, 11:08:08 AM »
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Dennerle seem to infer that you can use this as a stand-alone general fertiliser or as a supplement.
It would be interesting to know what the active ingredients are.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2018, 11:23:27 AM »
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I've just got back from a trip to Aquarium Gardens. If I had any sense, and if I wasn't so wrapped up in getting more anubias for the axolotl tank, I could have asked if they know what the active ingredients are.  ::)

Offline TopCookie

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2018, 12:34:56 PM »
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Certainly an interesting development...  One would have to assume that it should be "safer" than the glutaraldehyde based products, but not knowing what is in there is a problem... 

Offline Sue

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 12:38:11 PM »
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It also says that it contains potassium, iron, manganese and boron but does it contain other minerals as well? Plants need about 15 minerals but no plant supplement contains all of them. Some contain all but one or two, other's contain a lot less. If this Dennerle product contains only those 4, the other 10 or 11 will still have to be added separately.



Edit:
Just realised that potassium is a macro nutrient, so the Dennerle stuff names only 3 out of 15 micro nutrients.

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 02:49:29 PM »
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Iíve just about run out of EasyCarbo. Iíll give this a try and see if it produces similar results. I like the idea that it doesnít contain glutaraldehyde.

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2018, 03:04:21 PM »
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This is interesting https://www.jbl.de/en/blog/detail/131/the-story-of-liquid-co2-fertilisation-the-co2-content. Havenít got a clue what it all means though.  :isay:

Offline TopCookie

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2018, 03:18:11 PM »
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That article makes liquid CO2 dosing sound utterly redundant...  :o

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2018, 04:22:28 PM »
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It gets worse if you read the entire set of articles https://www.jbl.de/en/blog/detail/123/the-story-of-liquid-co2-fertilisation?sort_id=1&areas_id=0 specifically the fourth one.

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2018, 04:48:07 PM »
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Blimey...!!!  I had my doubts about liquid CO2 before...  that just cements them...!!!

Offline Helen

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2018, 07:18:23 PM »
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I wonder whether we're getting too obsessed with CO2. I'm fairly sure that the elemental building block that plants require is just carbon. If you think about what a plant is, it is cellulose. Which is a fairly long chain molecule made up of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. Oxygen and hydrogen come from water, but for most (non-aquatic) plants, the most abundant source of carbon is in CO2. It also has oxygen, so happy days, the whole molecule can be used.

So maybe the liquid carbon supplements aren't so bad if we think about them providing all 3 of the base elements, just in a different configuration?

Obviously I have simplified this to the extent that I have ignored all the other nutrients, macro and micro, that plants need to make more complex cellulose based molecules.

Offline Matt

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2018, 11:17:17 PM »
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I agree with you all... but I'm still utterly confused.  ::)

I've also heard that products such as seachems excel appear to get better results, but I can't understand why this would be if it's the same active ingredient...

I think I will either end up giving these a go or...

I did read a number of articles that said that liquid co2 is far less effective than gaseous. Ranging from 4 to 10 times less effective.

The  making me thing that if I can get just a little gaseous co2 into the tank it should make a massive difference... perhaps I should look into a system like the tropica 60 thing with a gas bell which I could hide in the tank... but then how ti connect this to a gas cylinder... my research tonight took me to wondering about a very simplistic co2 system with just the following two items... but I don't know enough to know if this will work...?
https://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/co2-regulator-simple-p107.html
https://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/co2-diffuser-acrylic-large-aquarium-150l-p199.html

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2018, 06:36:58 AM »
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You would require a drop checker in order to check the CO2 level in the tank.
I use a fire extinguisher as my CO2 source. They are a lot cheaper to buy initially and to refill.
It might be worth considering a regulator with gauges in order to check the working pressure and the gas remaining in the cylinder.

Offline Helen

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2018, 06:45:53 AM »
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I thought continuous monitoring of CO2 in a tank was based on pH and therefore only an indirext measure.

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2018, 10:12:01 AM »
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I must admit I didnít need a drop checker when I had the Seneye in the tank. I just used the pH drop to gauge the amount of CO2 that I was injecting from a table of values based on kH and pH.
I currently use a drop checker as I find it a simple way of getting the CO2 level right as I tend to tweak my levels up gradually (in case of an overdose).

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2018, 05:07:29 PM »
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Iím going to order the Carbo Elixier Bio and see what difference it makes to 5he plant growth in my tank.
Iíll go without liquid carbon for a few days while I wait for it to arrive.


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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2018, 08:31:37 PM »
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Thanks @daveyng

Keep us informed!

Offline TopCookie

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2018, 11:17:51 PM »
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Thanks @daveyng

Keep us informed!

Ditto...!!!

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2018, 10:41:37 PM »
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Have the Carbo Elixier Bio and started dosing using 5ml per day. Recommended dosing is 1-3 ml per 100 litres. My tank is heavily planted so this works out about 2/3 of the maximum dose for my 270 litre tank.
I have taken a couple of pictures of the aquarium at this stage so that I can make a comparison on probably a weekly basis (depending on growth rate).
States on the packaging that it is not a complete fertiliser and that it dangerous to exceed the recommended dosing levels.
Iíll keep you posted as time progresses and will include pics on my next update.

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2018, 08:03:29 AM »
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Thanks @daveyng

Are you dosing anything else at the same time? Does the bottle make any comment on using it with other products?

Offline Sue

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2018, 09:16:35 AM »
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The website said it contains only 3 of the necessary ~15 micronutrients, and 1 of the 3 macronutrients. That's why they say it is not a complete fertiliser.

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2018, 11:02:04 AM »
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Yes @Matt Iím dosing 10ml of Profito and 5ml of Ferro on a daily basis. There are no comments on using it with other products on the bottle.

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2018, 12:39:02 PM »
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Hi all, apologies for the prolonged absence from the Forum.
An update on the Carbo Elixir Bio :- Just finished the first bottle and have seen no marked changes in plant growth although I still have an issue with BBA. I must admit I didnít expect to see much of a change as I was already dosing EasyCarbo so I merely swapped to the more ďnaturalĒ product.
I will continue to use the Carbo Elixir Bio as I feel it is safer that using the EasyCarbo with livestock.
The BBA is probably caused by daily CO2 fluctuations. I canít seem to keep an optimum dosing level at the moment.
I have purchased a new diffuser (inline model) and will replace the old one when I swap out my cylinder which is just about to run out.
I have just ďmowedĒ the Crypts and need to prune the Nymphae Lotus which I do about once a fortnight.
Iíll put some pics in the gallery soon.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2018, 12:49:27 PM »
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I'm looking forward to seeing your pics.  :)

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2018, 02:23:07 PM »
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I have been dosing both products for 3 weeks to have a comparison.  I have seen increased growth but go figure... overall I'm doing more by my dosing both products. I too will be sticking with the bio product in future. A) safer, B) lasts in the aquarium longer than 24 hours unlike glut based products so if I miss a days dosing it's no problem.

I do have a slight reservation that I'm seeing more diatoms on the glass than normal but it's not unmanageable and I'm not sure it's related... any thoughts welcome.

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2018, 06:12:13 PM »
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@Matt are you dosing both products in the same tank ?. I too have to clean the glass more regularly. I am assuming itís the Glut in the EasyCarbo which was keeping the algae at bay.

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2018, 09:13:07 PM »
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Yep both in the same tank

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2019, 09:41:16 PM »
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I've been far less regular with my dosing recently but am getting my act back together now... I've had a few algae issues pop up too so clearly being regular with this things is a big plus! I think I will be switching back to glut based co2 only whilst this calms downs a bit... maybe there is something to be said for the algecide factor with these products after all... green hair algae is not a good look...

Offline jaypeecee

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2019, 12:24:47 PM »
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Hi Folks,

I'm certainly interested in giving this Dennerle product a try sometime. Currently, I use CO2 but I'm concerned that it's an inefficient way of getting carbon to the plants. In the tank itself, I have a very good atomizer, which produces a very fine mist of CO2 bubbles. But a very visible proportion of the CO2 bubbles quickly find their way to the water surface where they burst and are lost. And that's with my circulation pump directed onto the atomizer to ensure optimum circulation of the injected CO2. The atomizer is positioned approximately 20cm below the water surface.

JPC

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2019, 01:01:42 PM »
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Atomisers are supposed to be the most efficient method of co2 injection. It does depend though on the levels you are trying to reach though... A bell siphon system will ensure that all the co2 dissolves into the water, you just can't achieve such high levels as you can with an atomiser.  Afraid I can't help you with your atomiser as I've no experience with them other than very briefly, if you put less gas through the bubble size may drop. Have you also cleaned it recently with bleach? I see this being done online...

Offline daveyng

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2019, 05:03:15 PM »
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@jaypeecee I was using an Atomiser until recently. I found the best results with dispersion were when I had the Atomiser almost at the substrate. I also used a circulation pump to get the bubbles around the tank.
I have just changed to a JBL inline Atomiser which I have attached to one of my external filters. Took a while to get the gas flow right but apart from that the CO2 levels are stable throughout the day (using a drop checker).

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2019, 09:36:01 PM »
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It does depend though on the levels you are trying to reach though...

Hi Matt,

I aim for, and can achieve, 25 - 30ppm CO2. But it can take 4 hours to achieve these figures. So, I have very recently set the CO2 to come on one and a half hours earlier than it used to come on.

JPC

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Re: Bio liquid co2
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2019, 09:51:01 PM »
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I have just changed to a JBL inline Atomiser which I have attached to one of my external filters.

Hi davey,

I did consider a JBL inline atomizer but - crazy though it may sound - I don't have enough spare room in my equipment cabinet!

JPC

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