The 20 Degrees Club

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Offline Matt

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The 20 degrees club
« on: July 04, 2020, 12:52:26 PM »
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I’ve been doing research recently into fish that have their minimum temperature at around 20 degrees. There has been articles in the past on here and in other places ( this is one of my favourites: https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/how-to-set-up-a-temperate-tank-that-looks-tropical/ ) on setting up temperate tanks, but they are often focussed on fish that can tolerate temperatures like 16-18 degrees Celsius and so are fine in an indoor unheated tank in a heated home.  It struck me though that oftentimes having a heater is still recommended in these instances as a just in case measure e.g. you go away for a weekend and the house cools down. It is also apparent that some of these species would struggle to deal with warm summer room temperatures with chillers and/or air stones often being recommended in the hottest months to ensure the fish don’t overheat. This really defeats the object of trying to go for a temperate tank in my view as there is significant added complication here.

So I got to researching fish with a minimum temperature of around 20 degrees. A heater could be used in the tank to prevent the water dropping below this minimum temperature but the summer temperature issue goes away because the fish can cope with higher temperatures. The other advantage is that this strategy would potentially allow the stocking of hillstream loach (given some flow top of course) alongside other fish - a species that I’ve had my eye on for ages! Also whilst the article I’ve linked suggests no problems with plants at cooler temperatures this does not match with my experience with some of the less hardy plants than those the author chooses. In summary I’m shooting for the middle ground compromise position - one I assumed wouldn’t really be possible... but I was pleasantly surprised!!...

Below is my current list of fish species that I would ordinarily consider a full tropical species which my research (mainly using Seriously Fish) indicates would work at this middle ground 20 degrees temperature (and above). I is certainly not exhaustive as I’ve *mainly* stuck to South American fish and I like the smaller species so won’t have researched fish that don’t tickle my fancy... but if anyone want to add to it I can edit this post.  Some of my thoughts for where I might potentially transition my stocking towards are also shown. Interestingly many of the species I already own could be part of such a tank too.

Schoolers:
Neon/ Green Neon Tetra 21
Lemon Tetra 20
Red Phantom Tetra 20
Black Widow Tetra 20
Red/Black Phantom Tetra 20
Flame Tetra 20


Bottom Feeders:
Hastatus/Habrosus Cory 20

2cm Nanos:
Ember Tetra 20 - I have these already
Celestial Pearl Danio 20

Feature fish:
Apistogramma Borelli 20
Dwarf flag cichlid 20
Fiveband Barb 21

Top dwellers:
Dwarf Pencilfish 22 - I have these already
Golden Pencilfish 21
Marbled Hatchetfish 20
Rocket Killifish 20

‘Surface’ dwellers:
Otocinclus 21 - I have these already
Hillstream Loach 20

Offline fcmf

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2020, 02:00:40 PM »
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Sounds really interesting!

A few thoughts:
* some of the barbs like lower temps, and I just so happened to be reading about cherry barbs last night who fare well in set-ups for hillstream loaches [another small alternative might be dwarf golden];
* danio/microrasbora erythromicron;
* white cloud mountain minnows;
* Asian rummynose (sawbwa resplendens);
* Florida flagfish (Jordanella floridae);
* bentosi tetra [maybe a bit big];
* bristlenose plec.



 

Offline Littlefish

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2020, 05:30:01 PM »
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Are you just researching or are you considering setting up a temperate tank?  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2020, 09:15:46 PM »
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Don't forget that the temperature shouldn't be kept at the minimum for a species, the temp should be somewhere in the middle of their range. The minimum and maximum are those temperatures they can survive at for a short time rather than live at permanently.

Offline Matt

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2020, 09:53:05 PM »
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@Sue you raise. Good point here - do you think that having the tank temperature at the fishes minimum for the winter months is too long? Many of these species will be use to seasonal fluctuations would they not?

Offline Matt

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2020, 09:55:41 PM »
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Are you just researching or are you considering setting up a temperate tank?  :)

Just thinking about transitioning my tank to a cooler temperature over time. I am in the unfortunate position where a lot of my existing fish are getting quite elderly and I’m likely to have the opportunity to change the ‘character’ of the community should I wish to do so.

Offline Sue

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2020, 09:48:00 AM »
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My gut feeling is that it is OK to be at the lower or higher edge of the temperature range for short periods such as a cold snap in winter and a heatwave in summer.

But I am aware that this in the reaction of someone who lives in the British climate which is prone to short lived swings to the extremes. In other countries at our latitude, it is hot all summer and cold all winter with a transition period between. (I once had a Polish neighbour who said that in Poland, it got colder through autumn, stayed cold all winter then got warmer in spring. She blamed our fluctuating climate for things like the common cold) In the tropics the temperature varies diurnally rather than seasonally.

I don't know what the climate is like in those areas where the temperate fish in the hobby originate. Are they like Britain which has short lived hot and cold snaps, and the fish survive those low temperatures for a short time but could not cope for months? Or is the climate in their places of origin more akin to central Europe, where it gets cold and stays cold till spring?

Offline Matt

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2020, 08:13:43 PM »
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I had the same thoughts as you during my research it seems... from my understanding they are from places in which the temperature varies diurnally so they should be readily adjusted to a slow seasonal change in temperature - and so the cooler half of the year here where the tank would remain at 20 degrees would simulate what they are used to. I could also adjust the heater up to a higher summer temperature...

Offline Matt

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2023, 09:04:57 PM »
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I find myself coming back to this topic given the rising costs of electricity…

I also have a realisation from my previous work in that I was previously attempting to find tropical species that could go as low as 20 degrees, rather than exploring temperate species too. Whilst I would want to accommodate some of my existing fish if I was ever to go for a lower temperature tank, there is no need for me to restrict myself to adding only ‘tropicals that will manage that low’.

Anyway long story short, I’ve kind of settled on the below as a potential stocking plan

Schoolers:
Flame Tetra 20
Zebra Danio 18
Ruby Barb  18
Ember Tetra 20 - I have these already

Bottom Feeders:
Julli Cory 20 - I have these already

Feature fish:
Dwarf flag cichlid 20

‘Surface’ dwellers:
Hillstream Loach 18

Nerite snail and Amano shrimp - I have these already

All this really means for now is that I can replenish my aging population of ember tetra. When my existing schoolers (cardinals and rummynoses) pass on Flame Tetra or Zebra Danio would be the logical replacement species. I may also look into getting the dwarf flag cichlid now as I found myself wanting to get dwarf cichlids again just recently.

Offline fcmf

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2023, 05:04:18 PM »
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I always like looking at folks' stocking plans and drooling over the fish.  They all seem lovely. 

I'm not able to look at the species profiles to check for compatibility but a couple of thoughts re potential aggression might be worth checking out:
* ruby barbs .v. shy/timid ember tetras (also size difference);
* barbs/cichlids .v. cories and shrimp;
* ruby barbs .v. cichlids.

Re temperature, you'd probably need the tank at 23'C in order to accommodate their requirements optimally. Anything varying too much from this might very well be a false economy if living in sub-optimum temperatures that they can tolerate but not thrive in, and then needing to treat ill or replenish dying stock more frequently. 

Even if the stocking compatibility works, and you're happy/set to proceed with this choice of fish, it would be interesting to work out if keeping the tank at 23'C .v. current temperature is likely to make a £ difference?

 

Offline Matt

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2023, 06:34:35 AM »
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This is one of those many reasons this forum is great… you are all able to look at my excited scribbles from a more sensible standpoint and bring me back to reality!  Quite right… if I want to go to say 20 degrees I need fish that go lower than this. I think I was assuming in summer the tank would go hotter and there would be a seasonal fluctuation. But I guess the ‘winter’ at 20 degrees would be too long. What I would want to avoid is having to cool the tank in summer so I will turn my research to that now… I suspect there is no perfect answer here…

Offline Hampalong

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Re: The 20 degrees club
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2023, 11:47:03 AM »
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22-23 would be much better than 20 for most of the fish you’re considering.

Corydoras julii will not be happy at 20C, but C. trilineatus will, temporarily. I wouldn’t take Laetacara down to 20 at all.


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