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Whitespot - And The Consequences Of The Import Spot Variety - ESHa Exit

Author Topic: Whitespot - and the consequences of the Import Spot variety - eSHa Exit  (Read 26015 times)

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Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2016, 08:23:09 PM »
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Well.....
it's day 4 today, the treatment officially finished yesterday, but at lunchtime one of the fish still had spots, though they had gone by mid afternoon. So I'm taking no chances and I've added day 4's dose this afternoon to be followed by days 5 and 6.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2016, 12:41:34 PM »
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Sounds like a good plan, glad its going well  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2016, 09:16:15 PM »
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I added medication for a total of six days, last one on Saturday 19th. The fish are still clear of spots.

Today I did a big water change, 11 x 7.5 litre buckets = 82.5 litres. Then I put some carbon granules in a net bag in a small internal filter, then put it in the tank.


The downside - the tap water is 6oC. The fish tank has been running at 29 deg during treatment, so 82.5 litres water at tap temp would have dropped the tank temp far too much. Using 1.25 litre boiling water per bucket raised the temp to 18 deg and I was happy with that. I added boiling water to 10 of the 11 buckets.
At dinner time I tried to make a pot of tea, and I would appear to have killed the kettle by boiling it 10 times one after the other :(

Offline Anne

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2016, 09:32:10 PM »
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Yay, no white spot :cheers:

Boo, no kettle :'(

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2016, 09:34:15 PM »
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Great news that your fish are still clear.  ;D
My sympathies are with you for the kettle.  :(
I mean, we all love our pets, and it is a matter of priorities, but I hope the fish realise that you're having to manage without a cup of tea. That may be a sacrifice too far.

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2016, 09:38:19 PM »
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Did you know that it takes 7 mins to boil 1 pint of water (2 mugs) in a 1000w microwave  ;D

It would have been faster using a pan of water on the cooker hob.


We are off kettle shopping tomorrow.

Offline Paddyc

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2016, 10:08:28 PM »
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I sympathise with your situation Sue, I'm lucky to have a combi boiler and can use hot tap water... Nothing worse than being British without a kettle, it's blasphemy!

I have two large white barrels that I got from a friend of mine. They were previous used for detergent and I have so far only used them for removing the tank water and dumping it outside.

However I've been thinking if I could somehow ensure they were sufficiently clean and safe I could prepare a large amount of Dechlorinated water to add to the tank.

I was even thinking of investing in another tank heater so I could heat the barrel water to tank temp for 24 hours prior to the water change... But I'm unsure how to properly clean the barrels out...

Offline fcmf

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2016, 10:59:32 PM »
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It would have been faster using a pan of water on the cooker hob.
I'm almost certain that, when at school a few years ago (ok - quite a long time ago), that there was no such word for a 'kettle' in French ie to make hot drinks, a pan of water was used on the hob. Does indeed seem to be a very British kitchen item/necessity.

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2016, 09:21:29 AM »
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I left my husband standing over the pan of water at breakfast while I sorted the washing ready to hang it out, and it was boiled before I got out of the door.
If anyone else finds themselves kettle-less, a pan of water on the hob is the way to go, much faster than the microwave.


I think the kettle was on its way out, my 10 boilings were just the last straw. It had refused to work before but a good shake used to sort it out. Not this time though.
And I should say that 82.5 litres was an unusually large water change, just to remove a big chunk of the medication. I would hate to do that amount on a regular basis!




Edit - don't feel too guilty now. Having just bought a new kettle, I put the receipt in the Receipts Envelope and removed the old one. We bought it on 19 Nov 2007. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did!

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2016, 12:55:35 PM »
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That's an impressive lifespan for a kettle.  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2016, 02:34:11 PM »
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Aaarrrggghhhh >:(



One male cherry barb has one white spot.




So I've removed the small carbon filled filter, turned the heater back up and started another course of eSHa Exit.


After 12 days in a bucket I've just put the snails in the betta's tank. I was just checking the fish ready to return the snails to the main tank when I spotted the spot. The snails couldn't stay in the bucket any longer. I chose the betta's tank as there are no shrimps in there.

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2016, 02:53:41 PM »
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Oh how frustrating!  :vcross:

Offline Paddyc

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2016, 05:38:23 PM »
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What a disappointment for you Sue, I am learning so much from this thread though for any future issues I may have so I thank you for sharing your woes.

I really hope you get past it and get back to having healthy fish  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2016, 06:42:46 PM »
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I am wondering if I was a bit hasty, but after this last couple of weeks, I panic easily when it comes to my fish.

The barb in question no longer has the spot I saw earlier, I have just been studying it with a magnifying glass - when I could see it at all. It might have a spot at the front edge of where the dorsal fin joins the body. This fish is suddenly behaving oddly. It is skittish, jumping at the least thing, and it has taken to lurking at the back of the tank making it hard to observe.
Time will tell what the problem is.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2016, 08:47:35 PM »
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I do empathise with that sense of panic when fish are unwell, Sue, and for this to continue for quite some time afterwards.

Fingers crossed for your barb and that normality will resume soon.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2016, 11:34:41 AM »
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Bad luck Sue  :( I hope you find out whats wrong

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2016, 01:28:58 PM »
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The tank lights come on at midday. I waited till the fish had got used to them (and I'd eaten lunch) then checked the fish. The barb is behaving normally now but the might-have-been spot where the dorsal fin joins the body is now a definite spot. But it doesn't look quite right. Like the one on its head earlier yesterday, the one that vanished, it looks more like something on top of the skin rather than something that has burrowed into the skin. Whitespot usually looks like an upside down dish, this looks like a ball.
Here's a silly thought - it is the same little white thing that has moved?

But whatever it is I'm not taking chances. I can't see spots on any other fish but I'm still going to complete the medication course. Day 2 today, day 3 tomorrow.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2016, 01:57:29 PM »
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It might be worth leaving the meds in for a week after the last dose.

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2016, 12:44:19 PM »
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The cherry barb doesn't have whitespot, he has fungus.

Quote
But it doesn't look quite right. Like the one on its head earlier yesterday, the one that vanished, it looks more like something on top of the skin rather than something that has burrowed into the skin. Whitespot usually looks like an upside down dish, this looks like a ball.

He has a patch of white in the crevice where the eye joins the head; he has a patch of white where the dorsal fin joins the body; he has a patch of white where one pectoral fin joins the body; and he has a few spots on his tail fin which look like they are on the surface not buried into the skin. And he is pale and jumpy.

I've had these fish a few months so it shouldn't be due to something from the shop. Does this fish not tolerate the whitespot medication? I am allergic to flucloxacillin, maybe something similar in fish?


So now I have a dilemma. I don't want to add another medication to the whole tank - unlike whitespot where you have to use medication to kill bugs in the water, fungus (be it an actual fungus or a bacterial infection) does not require treatment of the water just the fish. But it is going to be very tricky to catch just one fish and treat it in the quarantine tank.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2016, 01:15:02 PM »
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I dont think I'd ever catch a fish in my 200l, there's too many places to hide. Good luck with that Sue.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2016, 03:15:54 PM »
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Sorry to hear about the fungus. It's not going to be easy catching a fish in a tank that size, but I can see why you wouldn't want to medicate the whole tank.
Best of luck with treating your cherry barb, and for a rapid recovery.  :)

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2016, 05:20:32 PM »
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That was easier than I expected.

I did a water change on the 2 kitchen tanks this afternoon. When I finished my hands were still wet from putting the lids back on so I had a go at catching the barb - it took me 2 minutes. He isn't very well at all if I could catch him that easily.
He's now in the QT with eSHa 2000 added. I'll have to wait and see if he's too far gone for the 2000 to help. Since all the other fish are swimming round looking and behaving normally there must be an underlying condition for this barb to get fungus.



The QT is a 25 litre tank. At the moment it has 2 plastic plants, a section of plastic drainpipe, and a filter with some media taken form the main tank. The amount of Exit in the water in the sponge should be OK with the 2000 I've added, especially since the instructions say they can be used together.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2016, 05:35:56 PM »
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That didn't take long.
Glad he's in the QT and I hope he starts to get better soon.
 :)

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2016, 06:20:17 PM »
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Fingers crossed for him.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2016, 06:47:07 PM »
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Fingers crossed that the treatment works and that there's a happy outcome for him.

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2016, 12:35:58 PM »
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I've added 2 doses of eSHa 2000, the third is due this afternoon. It is supposed to be a three day course.

The barb is being very awkward, he is staying in one orientation so I can only see his left side. The spots on his tail have gone as has the spot where the dorsal fin joined the body. But he won't turn round to let me see his pectoral fin and eye on the right side, though I can just about see in his reflection on the tank wall that the eye still looks swollen.

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2016, 03:49:47 PM »
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I have done a few water changes on the 180 litre since I moved the snails out, and I now realise that most of the fish poo on top of the sand was actually snail poo. The tank has looked much cleaner while they've been gone.

I returned the small greyish snail with lighter grey spots to the tank before adding the second dose of Exit and it is still crawling round the glass so it would appear that Exit does not kill nerites. The other four snails are still in the betta's tank, I'll move them back at the next water change.



But the cherry barb in the quarantine tank is still not well. The white patches on his right side are still there but smaller, and his eye still looks a bit of a mess. I've just started adding more 2000, but I'm not expecting too much.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2016, 09:12:09 PM »
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How old is he Sue?

I can remember the misery of trying to cure Frank until I realised that he was actually quite a senior betta and he was dying from diseases brought about by a declining immune system due to old age.

Offline Paddyc

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2016, 09:41:20 PM »
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Sorry to hear he isn't responding as well as anticipated Sue. But I reckon he's in the best place he could be. There's a lot to be said for having a hospital/quarantine tank.

Keep us updated. If he is an old timer then salutes to him, poor wee beastie  :(

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2016, 09:45:32 PM »
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I'm just about to urn my laptop off for the night, I'll look in my notebook tomorrow exactly when I bought the cherry barbs, but is within the last year as I got them when I was restocking after losing so many fish to camallanus worms. Though just because I got them within the last year doesn't mean the fish is less than a year old.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2016, 10:09:35 PM »
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Keeping my fingers crossed for the cherry barb.  :fishy1:

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2016, 10:19:10 AM »
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I bought 2 male and 5 female natural coloured cherry barbs on 17 July 2015. And I bought 3male, 3 female albino cherry barbs on 6 July 2015.
The sick fish is one of the natural coloured males, and he's the only fish in the tank that is affected. Not even the 2 lonely ember tetras are affected, and they didn't get whitespot either. (I did have 12 ember tetras, the rest have died since I got them 3 years ago. They were badly affected by the anti-camallanus worm medication I had to use last year)
Since the cherry barb only got fungus after the whitespot treatment went in the tank, I wonder if this individual couldn't cope with it which has made him susceptible to the second infection.

He is not a very happy fish at all. His eye looks awful and he's swimming half an inch above the bottom of the tank gasping quite badly. I am not very hopeful; the fungus looks as though it is improving in the joints between fins and body but he is behaving much worse as the days go on.

Offline Paddyc

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2016, 10:47:12 AM »
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It's not sounding good for the wee fella. Sorry to hear this  :( :( :(

Offline fcmf

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2016, 11:25:36 AM »
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Sorry to hear this, Sue. I've found aquarium salt treatment to be very beneficial for goldfish, producing some amazing turnarounds when the outlook seemed bleak, but I know it has to be used very carefully with tropical fish and is contraindicated in many cases. This http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2850 is an interesting article. Having said that, once a fish has reached the "gasping" stage, I've never had a positive outcome. I'll keep my fingers tightly crossed but the situation isn't looking too hopeful...

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #84 on: April 03, 2016, 04:42:30 PM »
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Fingers crossed for your barb.

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2016, 10:35:19 AM »
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I got up this morning to find the barb dead on the bottom of the tank. I am not surprised, he hasn't looked well for a few days.

I now feel guilty about keeping him in the quarantine tank and prolonging things rather than putting him down when I realised how bad he was  :(

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2016, 10:43:16 AM »
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Sorry to hear that Sue.  :(
You tried your best for him and nobody could blame you for trying.

Offline Paddyc

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2016, 10:47:50 AM »
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Sorry Sue, don't feel guilty. Night night cherry barb  :'(

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #88 on: April 04, 2016, 10:58:36 AM »
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I don't like losing fish!

Since the camallanus outbreak at the end of 2014/early 2015, I have lost 4 fish from the 180 litre tank. This cherry barb, a 51/2 year old green neon tetra (the last one of that shoal), one microdevario, and a newly purchased deformed pencilfish (should have watched the chap catching them more closely).
I expected the deaths of the green neon, which was very old for a tetra, and the pencilfish; the microdevario didn't surprise me as I lost several during the camallanus worm period (not sure if that was worms or treatment).
But I did not expect a seemingly healthy barb to suddenly develop fungus and go downhill that fast. He must have had something else going on besides the fungus.

Fish are very good at hiding illness. In the wild, shoaling fish often kill weaker members to stop them attracting predators to the shoal. It is in the interest of a sick fish to behave as un-sick as possible.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #89 on: April 04, 2016, 11:49:45 AM »
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Sue you gave a young fish the best care and treatment.  It could have recovered so you had to give it a chance to do that.

I hate losing fish too but sometimes despite everything you do they still die  :(  Try not to beat yourself up too much but I do understand how you feel.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #90 on: April 04, 2016, 01:24:10 PM »
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Very sorry to read of this, Sue. I've come to the conclusion that, no matter what course of action is taken, there's always scope for beating oneself up about it and to question "ought I to have done that differently / not done that / tried that medication instead?", etc,etc, and to keep torturing oneself over it. As for euthanasia, I've never yet performed it, partly because I've had goldfish who looked as though they were at death's door for up to a week, only for them to seemingly miraculously pull through (whether with aquarium salt treatment or medication) and go on to live for some considerable time afterwards. In such instances, I'm so glad I've not acted. Even when death was seemingly inevitable, I've never performed euthanasia, in the dim hope that somehow there will be another miraculous turnaround. In such instances, I wish I had acted and spared them many hours of suffering; on the other hand, I would probably forever be beating myself up, wondering "what if they had pulled through?"

It's so very difficult to know how "far gone" a fish is. When my beloved goldfish (RIP) died, he had seemed far worse and nearer death's door several years beforehand (with what must have been an acute bacterial infection and when his behaviour was very out-of-sorts) than when he died (with what must have been a slow progression of a chronic condition in which his behaviour wasn't particularly out-of-sorts). It's also rather like humans - often, just when they seem to perk up and you feel they're "out of the woods" from a major health event/scare and you can begin to breathe a sigh of relief, the situation often goes completely awry again.

In the circumstances you were faced with, I think you absolutely did everything you possibly could. As an objective outsider who is prone to questioning such situations over and over when my own fish are involved, I looked at this with more reason than when in the situation myself and panicking, and I absolutely believe you did everything you could have. I hope this is of some small consolation.



Offline Richard W

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #91 on: April 04, 2016, 01:47:05 PM »
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A couple of months ago, I was watching my TV, which has a small tank next to it. Suddenly I saw out of the corner of my eye a flash in the tank. One of my CPDs shot across the tank, then up to the top, then drifted down to the bottom dead, mouth and gill covers wide open. I fished it out and could see absolutely no sign of disease, even under the microscope, it looked perfectly bright and shining, just as normal. I assume some sort of fishy heart attack or similar, it apparently went from healthy to dead in a few seconds.

On the other hand, when I fed pellets into a tank, primarily for the Corydoras, they proved extremely popular with the pearl danios. One of these really attacked the pellets, which were lying on the bottom, very ferociously. As a result, presumably of slamming his head into the gravel, he (or she?) came up with what looked like a bloody nose. Nothing I could do except wait. After a while it developed a large white lump on his nose which I thought would turn into a fungal growth. However, nearly two years later the lump is still there and the fish is just as active (and greedy) as ever, which goes to show that things don't always turn out badly and fish can show remarkable powers of recovery. In nature, it's not unusual to find fish which have literally had large chunks torn out of their bodies by predators, but have survived and recovered.

I also have a flame tetra which has difficulty in swimming horizontally, essentially its head is always up and its tail down, almost vertical. I assume this is some swim bladder issue, but as there's really nothing I can do about it I'm leaving things alone, particularly as the fish is otherwise OK and is actually the first one to go up for food as soon as it hits the surface. So long as a fish does not appear to be suffering, is active and eating well I wouldn't consider euthanizing it.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #92 on: April 04, 2016, 02:15:56 PM »
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Sorry to hear about your cherry barb.  :(
It's awful to lose a fish and it is natural to question yourself, but I believe that you did everything that you could to ensure the most positive outcome for the fish.

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #93 on: April 04, 2016, 04:37:24 PM »
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Thank you all.

It is one of those things we have to get used to as fishkeepers, seemingly healthy fish suddenly becoming ill or dying for no apparent reason.

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #94 on: April 04, 2016, 06:12:58 PM »
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Thank you all.

It is one of those things we have to get used to as fishkeepers, seemingly healthy fish suddenly becoming ill or dying for no apparent reason.

And for several days afterwards we beat ourself up trying to work out if we could have, or should have, done something differently.  :-[

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #95 on: April 06, 2016, 12:58:04 PM »
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Yesterday morning I moved the snails from the betta's tank back into the 180 litre. They had spent 12 days in a bucket to ensure there were no whitespot parasites left alive before I put them in the betta's tank - there could have been some stage 2 or 3 in the water on the snails which is why they went into the bucket initially.

But I couldn't find one of the snails. I looked in the betta's tank whenever I walked past in the hope that it had crawled out from its hidey hole but no luck. I finally found it yesterday evening - on the worktop next to the tank behind the transformer for the 50 litre's light. It looked all dried up but knowing nerites, I put it into a small tub of tank water and waited. I checked it after 2 hours to find it crawling around the tub so I put it into the 180 litre, where it is now crawling over a piece of wood munching away.

The moral of the tale is that snails can survive out of water for quite a while if they have an operculum (trapdoor) to seal themselves shut, something I discovered years ago. Never assume that a snail that has climbed out of the tank is dead, always check by putting the snail in water.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #96 on: April 06, 2016, 03:48:02 PM »
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That was probably snail number 5. If I remember correctly he was quite tough previously too.  ;D

Offline Sue

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #97 on: April 06, 2016, 04:06:02 PM »
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It was actually snail #4, the one I found 5 mins after adding the Exit.

The snails I found before adding the medication, were -
#1 small grey snail with lighter grey spots
#2 small orange red snail with black markings
#3 larger black snail with very thin brown zigzag stripes.

Snail #4, the one I found 5 mins after adding the med, and the one I found on the worktop yesterday, is a zebra nerite

Snail #5, the one that survived a day in the tank with med when I couldn't find it, is a large orange red snail with black markings, but a different pattern of markings from #2.


I also had a bit of a snail reshuffle this morning. I did have another of #1 in the 50 litre and a bee nerite in the betta's tank. I did have both type #1s in the 180 litre at one time but had to separate them because they were obviously male and female and I got up one day to find rather a lot of eggs on the decor and the tank walls.
With all those cherry shrimp in the 50 litre I don't really need a snail in there, so I moved the grey one into the betta's tank, and the bee nerite from the betta's tank into the 180 litre.


I must take some photos of these snails as they are all quite pretty.

Offline Richard W

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #98 on: April 06, 2016, 04:08:49 PM »
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The main problem I have with nerites is that I only usually see them when they are climbing up the front glass, which is not exactly their most attractive side.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Whitespot then fungus
« Reply #99 on: April 06, 2016, 04:17:25 PM »
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Yes, pictures please.  :)

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