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Pygmy Cory - Another Problem!

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Offline fcmf

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Pygmy cory - another problem!
« on: August 24, 2015, 12:54:15 PM »
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As per previous posts, I've had 6 pygmy cories since the end of Dec but have had 3 fatalities within the past 3 months.  Since the last fatality, and over the past week, the remaining 3 have actually become more lively and active than I’d anticipated, given their depletion in numbers and smaller size .v. the other 12.

Last night, however, I noticed that the liveliest fish seemed to have 1-2 white ‘bulges’ near its vent –hernia-like and/or as though the fish is constipated and having trouble passing the waste (although it doesn’t seem to be the waste itself on the outside of the body). This morning, the situation has been the same - 2 of these white, hernia-like protrusions/bulges at the base of the anal fins.  There is also a bit of redness in the area between the anal fins which looks as though it’s from the strain of these protrusions as it’s not raw / bloodstreak-like. I’m almost certain that this is the same fish that looked as though it had redness in exactly the same area recently (but which I put down to it having trouble passing its red micro pellets and which seemed to disappear once I stopped feeding the red micro pellets).

I’ve “googled” ‘swollen anal fins’ and it seems as though a couple of instances of this in other fish forums have occurred, each of which resolved themselves.  One suggestion was constipation – and, certainly, that is a possibility given that I only feed them dried food (flakes, micro-pellets), with a chopped pea once a week. I had been feeding them gelled daphnia (Tetra Delice) but, given the problems the cories had been having, and given problems which occurred many years ago with my goldfish after frozen food (I’d wondered if pathogens had been inadvertently introduced), I’ve been reluctant to go down that route. Given that this fish otherwise seems very contented, I’m reluctant to move it into the QT unless absolutely necessary.

Any suggestions of what to do, other than wait and see, and perhaps a pea in lieu of their dinner this evening, welcome; thanks.

Offline Sue

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2015, 01:53:02 PM »
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I would try the pea and wait to see what happens. Or maybe a slice of blanched courgette - though I'm not sure if they would touch that.

It does sound like you are having trouble with these fish  :(

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 07:05:36 PM »
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I simply don't know what to make of the situation now!

This afternoon, I saw a harlequin chasing and taking a nip at the anal fin of one of the other two cories; he seemed to curl up for a half a minute or so, then resumed going about his business - but I noticed he'd lost his left anal fin, although is otherwise fine.

Now I've noticed that one of the two protrusions/bulges has come off the other cory (the one this post was originally about), leaving only a fragment of its left anal fin; whether this protrusion/bulge fell off of its own accord and tore off the anal fin with it, or whether another fish took a nip at it too or whether this happened during the mating-type behaviour that goes on between the pygmy cories, I don't know. I think any are plausible as the tetras and harlequins do have a tendency to swim up close behind the cories when they're foraging, to get any tiny morsels of food that come out of the substrate, and snap the food. Biting off the tail/part of the tail of another cory during mating-type behaviour was responsible for at least one, if not two, of the tail-less states of two previous cories. However, this cory is now left with one protrusion/bulge with the remaining anal fin looking slightly fungal.

I'll see what happens once the pea is eaten - all cories are busily foraging around its pieces.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2015, 12:23:56 PM »
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Much to my amazement, the cory with the protrusions/bulges was not only alive but seemed to be back to normal this morning. I have some poor quality video footage of the fish yesterday which I'll try to get uploaded here, in the event that anyone else ever encounters something as bizarre as this - in all honesty, I didn't expect the fish could possibly survive/overcome this, let alone look 'normal' today. I haven't had time to inspect presence/absence of fins but all 3 were happily going about their business when I last looked.

I'm not getting my hopes up too much, though, given the track record I've had in recent months with these fish.

Offline Robert

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2015, 09:01:53 PM »
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#Invalid YouTube Link include https#

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There you go fcmf  :cheers:

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Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2015, 09:11:05 PM »
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Thanks, Robert.

As you'll see from these short clips, the size of the bulges are very large, relative to the size of the fish. Both bulges appeared on Sun eve but had disappeared by this morning (Tues), and the fish's two anal fins are just tiny little stumps now. Whether this was constipation, a rectal/anal prolapse, or what, I have no idea - any suggestions welcome - but the problem seems to be completely rectified... for now anyway.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2015, 08:07:27 AM »
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Unfortunately the same fish looked as though one of its two anal fin 'stumps' was looking pink/red around/on the outside of it last night. [NB. It may be the pelvic fins as, looking closely at the pygmy cory, the fins towards the end of the torso area seem to be the second set of fins while the anal fins seem to be close to the caudal fin at the end of its long caudal peduncle. Anyway, it's the same fins as in this previous set of posts on this thread.] This morning, this pink/reddishness was still there, but additionally the fin 'stump' has got the same whitish swelling as it had before. It almost looks as though the fin 'stump' is pus-filled, with a slight fungus-type 'cloud' surround on it. This is identical to the last time.

As I had ultimately decided that this might be an anal prolapse, and it seemed to clear up just after I'd been feeding pea to the tank (coincidentally or not), I've been feeding chopped pea or courgette twice weekly recently, for preventative reasons. I'm less convinced that an anal prolapse is the correct diagnosis, now that I've seen the re-onset of this rather than only noticing it when it was at its most extreme. I will feed another pea to the tank today although I'm not hopeful that this will clear up the problem. The fish is otherwise happy and active so I'm reluctant to stress it out by moving it to the QT to treat with eSHa 2000, although I may review this later.

If anyone has any further thoughts on what this might be, that would be much appreciated.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2015, 06:21:41 PM »
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I'm beginning/returning to think that this is actually some form of finrot despite my thorough and regular tank maintenance and water readings always being good.

I was googling and found this article http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/disease-fw.html which mentions a form of medicated fish food (by Tetra) - does this exist in the UK?  I'm struggling to find it.

Offline Sue

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2015, 06:47:01 PM »
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The problem is that so many medications or medicated food that are talked about on-line are not available in the UK. With antibiotics, it is to do with trying not to create medicine resistant bacteria.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2015, 07:58:37 PM »
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Of the 3 remaining cories:
* 36hrs later and Strange Anal Finned Cory has had the whitish swelling lump (identical to in the earlier videos) fall off again, so the two 'stumps' of where his anal fins should be are almost normal again albeit reddish.  He's in great form, though - very lively and active and foraging ferociously.
* Bent Spine Cory who had become normal for a few months developed another 'mark' in his caudal peduncle near the caudal fin a few days ago, whether by coincidence or because of a collision with a tetra when going up to get air and the tetra was going up for food; this 'mark' has happened repeatedly over time, as though it's an injury, but usually resolves itself; on this occasion, though, it's looking identical to Strange Anal Finned Cory's whitish, pus-like swelling surrounded by a slight fungus-type 'cloud' and red streak.   He's also in great form, though - very lively and active and foraging ferociously.
* Asymptomatic/Healthy Cory has been hiding for 2-3 days.  I've shone a torch in and located him, and he is alive, responds to the torchlight and starts foraging, but is hiding behind the rock-like cave.

Do I:
* leave them be and hope that Bent Spine Cory's 'swelling' resolves itself in the way that Strange Anal Finned Cory's 'swelling' has broken off/subsided and that Asymptomatic/Healthy/Hiding Cory comes out of hiding?
* move all 3 cories into the QT to keep a more watchful eye on them and prevent any 'contamination' to the x-ray tetras and harlequin rasboras?
* move all 3 cories into the QT and dose with eSHa 2000?

Looking at them physically, my inclination would be to use the QT and dose with eSHa 2000, in the hope that this might help combat what seems to be some form of (recurrent) finrot in 2 of them.  Looking at the behaviour of the two who have outward physical signs of problems, my inclination would be to leave them where they are as they seem perfectly happy and I wouldn't want to cause undue stress.

Whatever happens, I will NOT be replacing them - it's as though someone  :isay: is trying to tell me "Thou shalt / can not keep pygmy cories".

Offline Sue

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2015, 09:04:24 PM »
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I think I would move all three to the QT and dose them with eSHa 2000. There is something not right with this batch of fish. Moving them might stress them but as they seem to come down with things where they are (including the fish that is in hiding - that's not normal but it could be down to the small number of them) leaving them in the main tank will also be stressful.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2015, 08:02:15 PM »
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Thanks, Sue.

I attempted to move them but they were having none of it! I don't normally have difficulty netting them but they were adamant to escape the net. I had to give up after a few attempts as the extra water change (transferring water into the QT) and extra activity from fleeing cories caused the other fish to become stressed.

In the process of swimming at top speed round the tank, Bent Spine Cory's white, pus-like swelling with fungus 'cloud' detached itself and flew off - that was all I did manage to catch in the net; he is now left with a half-width caudal peduncle which I feel very uneasy about as I feel he is in danger of becoming tail-less. Strange Anal Finned Cory's anal fin 'stumps' are back to normal - for the time being. Healthy-But-Hiding Cory looked perfectly fine, with very upright dorsal fin, etc, but he's been continuing to hide all day.

The QT is all set up so I'll have another go this evening. I made the mistake of voicing aloud that it would probably make more sense to have the 3 remaining cories in a single-species tank on a permanent basis, perhaps with a new substrate and no hard decor...  The Other Half looked initially like this  :yikes: followed immediately like this  :isay:  ...

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2015, 05:23:11 PM »
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As an update, I decided to let the fish unwind from any stress during the attempted move to the QT earlier in the week and kept a watchful eye on the situation. Hiding Cory remained hidden for most of the past few days although otherwise looked perfectly healthy on the few occasions he did emerge, but Strange Anal Finned Cory's anal fin looked on the verge of a flare-up last night and, this morning, the other side of the already-half-width caudal peduncle on Bent Spine Cory had developed a fungus-like growth while his spine also was looking bent again although he was lively, active and inquisitive. I felt I had no option but to move all 3 into the QT during today's water change. It was quite an effort to catch each of them, even with a larger net. They've been in the QT with the eSHa 2000 but not looking at all well, and, apart from the occasional swim along the sides of the tank, have squeezed themselves behind the filter to seek refuge there. I don't think there is any chance of them surviving through whatever is going on... Part of me wonders if the fish would be better in their usual environment (ie the stress of the capture/being in an unfamiliar environment has worsened the situation) but the prognosis wasn't looking good where they were.

Given that the water quality is always good, and wondering if there is something in the substrate that's to blame for all the cories' problems (eg some sort of micro-organism living in it) given that they are closer to it than the other fish, I gave the main tank a much deeper clean than usual. Ordinarily, I use a siphon with an insert/safetyguard in it to "mow" through the upper half of the substrate, but, today, I removed the insert and so ensured that the entire depth of the not-very-deep (1-2cm) substrate was given a thorough churn-up and clean. About half of the substrate came up the siphon and I gave it a thorough swish in the old tank water - there was a lot of debris and the water quite dirty. As a consequence of this "deep clean", the water change was about 60-70%. Hopefully this might help the main tank, if indeed the substrate had any part to play.

I think it's now a "waiting game" to see what happens, unless anyone else has any additional suggestions?

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2015, 05:51:22 PM »
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The thing is, if there's an organism hiding in the substrate I'd expect other fish to be affected, not just the Pigmy Cory's.

What's left in the tank now you have isolated the Cory's?

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2015, 06:12:15 PM »
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I'm probably just "clutching straws" ie desperate to find some sort of reason behind all of this.  6 harlequin rasboras and 6 x-ray tetras are in the main tank.

The situation has worsened considerably - poor Bent Spine Cory (who behaviourally was absolutely fine this morning although physically not in good shape) was breathing heavily this afternoon and is now completely upside down and floating on the surface of the QT; he's still twitching/moving slightly and trying to rectify his buoyancy.  The stress of the move from this morning absolutely must be to blame for this acute deterioration.  A couple of months ago, I moved him into the QT and he transformed from being lively (but with damage to his caudal peduncle) into an immediate catastrophic depression-type state but immediately sprang back to life when I decided he'd actually be better off in the main tank - I assume putting him back into the main tank now is unlikely to cause a complete and miracle-like reverse in symptoms?!

I can hardly bear to go back into the room with the tank in it as the situation is too distressing to look at...

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2015, 06:19:26 PM »
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 :( such a shame.

I suppose you have nothing to lose by rehoming him in the main tank.

Offline Sue

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2015, 06:35:29 PM »
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If you do put them back in the main tank, look for them a few times a day. The most efficient way of passing a disease on is for the living fish to eat the dead ones. Any dead fish should be removed asap.

Hopefully it won't come to that though.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2015, 06:50:11 PM »
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Having decided to brave it and look at the QT, the situation has actually deteriorated so badly that Bent Spine Cory is definitely not fit to be in the main tank.  I think his floating around the surface of the QT was actually distressing the other two, as well as himself, so I have moved him into a shallow plastic container where he's lying on his back (upside down), breathing occasionally.  I've never been able to bring myself to do this but what would The Procedure involve exactly? (I have clove oil and vodka for this purpose although never used.)

I think the other two are better off in the QT - they are less perturbed by the move, and actually seem to have been moving about a bit more since I transferred B.S.C. to the shallow container.  (Also, as they were hiding much more than B.S.C. in the main tank, and I was having to shine a torch in behind the cave in an effort to check up on them, it's a lot easier for me to keep an eye on them in the QT, as well as try to give them a chance with the eSHa 2000.)

Offline Sue

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2015, 06:56:54 PM »
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The hiding could well be due to there not being enough of them. But I quite understand if you have no intentions of getting more after what you've been through with the ones you have.



If you do decide that bent spine has suffered enough:

Put bent spine in a small tub with some tank water. Put 25 drops of clove oil in a container with a tight lid, add some water and shake well. Pour the clove oil mix into the tub and wait a few hours before disposing of the body. Clove oil is a fish anaesthetic; it knocks them out first, then kills them. You need to be absolutely sure it is dead before removing the body.

Clove oil stinks - you won't be able to use either container for anything else again. And you might want to use rubber gloves.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2015, 08:24:19 PM »
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This is not turning out to be a good day - one of the two remaining cories was lying on his back/upside down on an ornament I'd put in the QT. I prodded him with the net to see if he was still alive - and he is - but the situation is not looking good. [I definitely put in the correct dosage of eSHa 2000.] I'm beginning to think there's a slim chance of him or the final one surviving the night.


Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2015, 09:28:46 PM »
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...and the third and final cory has followed suit.

Not a good weekend - I thought I wouldn't get as attached to tropicals as I was to my beloved goldfish but I've still found this all quite distressing.  :'(

Offline Anne

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2015, 10:36:10 PM »
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So sorry to hear about your cories, they are such sweet, easy going fish, either foraging or resting.  If it's any consolation you did all you could for them.

Anne

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2015, 07:27:40 AM »
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Sorry to hear about your Cories. Losing fish is never easy.   :'(

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2015, 05:27:54 PM »
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Thanks, Anne and Extreme_One.

There's no doubt that the transfer to the QT dramatically hastened the deterioration/demise of the final 3 fish, although I really didn't have an option as I was going to be going away for a few days' break and, with the cories not looking healthy at all, I didn't want to risk leaving them in the main tank with the others while away.  Whether this sudden deterioration was due to the stress of the move and/or to the eSHa 2000 or some other factor, what I would probably recommend to anyone who happens to read through this thread in future is to possibly err on the side of a smaller dosage of eSHa 2000 than recommended.  Having soft water, I could have doubled the dosage but didn't - with fish as small as pygmy cories, I would probably err on under-dosing, to be on the safe side.  [Dosage of meds is based on size of tank rather than size of fish but I do wonder if a micro-sized fish has more trouble tolerating the recommended doses.]

Based on my experiences, I'd probably recommend EITHER keeping pygmy (or pygmy-sized) cories with a similar sized shoal of micro-sized fish (eg CPDs or micro rasboras), ideally ones which swim in the upper echelons of a tank, OR in much larger groups if with small-sized fish (eg if with a shoal of 6 tetra-sized fish, then I'd probably keep 12 pygmy-sized cories to make them feel safer around their slightly bigger tankmates).

Now back to taking as best care I can of the x-ray tetras and harlequin rasboras who, oddly, seem to be looking much calmer/relaxed/'at home' in the tank than I've ever seen them, with a couple of them who had been repeatedly swimming up to investigate the cories' two corners on Sat evening already having claimed the cories' territory as their own...

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2015, 05:36:28 PM »
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I've just experienced two sudden unexplained deaths in my little shoal of Pygmy Corys.  Both died within a few days of each other and not a mark on them. :(

Still trying to decide whether to restock and increase the shoal size or to move away from this particular species altogether.

I'm leaning towards getting another 8 so they'll be in a shoal of 12, but this will have to wait until next month when I install a oversized external filter.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Pygmy cory - another problem!
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2015, 05:59:13 PM »
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Goodness - really sorry to hear about this. It seems as though once one goes, another follows, almost purely because of the previous one. I do hope that, in your case, this is a short-lived spell of bad luck and that the others will be absolutely fine. However, given my own experiences, I would definitely agree with the direction of your leaning - that's what, in hindsight, I wish I had done; I had been worried about overstocking but, reflecting back on the situation, I actually think slight overstocking might have been the better option for the fish - and, with pygmy cories, they wouldn't actually have had that big an impact in terms of ammonia produced, etc. If you do get more, then, if you can, I'd follow Diz1's advice to me which is to try getting them from another source/supplier.

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