Second Case Of Dropsy

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Offline TrenchyLs

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Second case of dropsy
« on: July 10, 2017, 07:16:14 PM »
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Lots of word follow, sorry!

Last Monday I came back for lunch to find one of my CPDs looking a little pale and lurking at the top of the tank.  By the time I got back from work that evening ALL his scales were sticking out and there seemed to be a swelling on his side.

A quick Google and then a manic drive to the nearest well-stocked LFS before it closed to get what I needed.

THIS ARTICLE is the one I initially followed, setting up my future betta tank as a hospital with a nasty little filter from Pets at Home (the foam filters in the LFS were huge!).

On Day 2 I did a partial water change to remove uneaten food, keep water chemistry reasonable (I didn't trust the filter and it wasn't cycled) and cut down on the salt levels since opinions are split on it being a good idea.  I also (based on Sue's advice along with a few other places) gave him an Epsom bath.

He seemed to perk up and the lump reduced, but by the time I got back from work on Day 3 he was swimming upside-down and died shortly after. :(

Obviously (back when I first saw him) I did full tests on the water in the tank pH was 7.5 (normal) while Ammonia and Nitrite were at 0.  Then I did the Nitrate test and was horrified to see how high it was!  I assumed the Dropsy was caused by a combination of the high Nitrates and maybe stress if he'd been on the losing end of a few territorial disputes.

I think it got so high for a number of reasons:
a)  The siphon I had was too big for such a tiny tank so the substrate and filter cavities hadn't been "hoovered" when I changed the water 3 days before - first water change since stocking on the previous Saturday.
b) Overfeeding such tiny fish and shrimps.
c)  Some of the plants (especially the Spiralis at the back) were dying-back a bit and I hadn't trimmed the dead stuff out yet.

So, to combat this I did a 30% water change (with a good gravel and filter clean using my new small siphon), trimmed the dead stuff off the plants and cut back on the feeding.  I also imported some Frogbit from the other tank and added a sachet of JBL BioNitratEX (even though it takes about 3 weeks to become active) in order to try and keep things under control.

By Friday levels were up again (but not as high) so a 50% water change and some more husbandry followed.

Today I've come back from work to find one of the females pineconed. :yikes:

I'm sorting out the hospital tank again but would appreciate any advice that's different to what I tried last time (even though consensus is that by this stage they are already too ill to save).

More importantly, is there anything I should be doing to try and prevent more casualties?
Water levels tonight are: pH 7.5, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 and Nitrate below 20ppm.  This seemed low, so I tried it a total of 3 times and also checked my tap water as a control (closer to 40ppm) so the test was working.

The unexpected thing through all this is that the shrimp have been absolutely fine despite all the advice saying they are very vulnerable to high nitrates,

Offline Sue

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Re: Second case of dropsy
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 07:25:38 PM »
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Shrimps and snails are actually quite a good indicator of water quality problems. Since your shrimps are not trying to climb out of the tank, I would think that the water quality is not responsible for the dropsy of the cpds.

You have given us a lot of info but I'll still check with you:
how long have you had them
size of tank
any other tank mates besides shrimps
hardness of your tap water (just hard soft or middling is fine)

I do wonder if intensive breeding in less than ideal conditions is responsible for a lot of this type of problem.

Offline TrenchyLs

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Re: Second case of dropsy
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 07:50:49 PM »
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Sue,

I've had them for 3 weeks and 2 days.
Tank is a 34L Fluval Flex, approx 34 x 30 x 30 (usable dimensions).
Just the shrimp.  Any snails I find go into the 120 for the Assassin snail.
Tap water is 14 Degrees German according to Anglia Water.

So, salt in the hospital tank or not?

Thanks.

Offline Sue

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Re: Second case of dropsy
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2017, 09:32:32 PM »
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The tank should be big enough and the hardness is well within their range. I suspect they are from less than perfect stock, I'm afraid.

I can remember when cpds were first discovered, and their habitat was virtually destroyed in the rush to fulfil demand for them. Luckily more sources were found and the fish bred readily in captivity. Which brings me on to breeders. The cpds I've seen recently in shops have been deformed little things with sunken bellies, not at all like the lovely fish that appeared shortly after their discovery. I suspect they are bred using any fish as parents instead of healthy breeding stock, and the iffy fry are not culled. And possibly the breeders use antibiotics to keep infections at bay (an all too common practice). Then they ship the fish out and they have no resistance to anything.

I would be reluctant to use salt in the hospital tank. But you could keep on with the epsom salt baths. The problem is that the pineconing is caused by fluid retention, and this is caused by kidney failure. By the time the symptoms show, it is usually too late to cure the fish. Epsom salt baths draw fluid out of the fish but if it is too far gone it just swells back up again.



I have experienced similar things over the years. It is so frustrating to watch them go and not be able to help them. If it is a bad batch of fish, all you can do is keep the water pristine and hope at least some of them make it. If at least one male and one female survive, you could well find they spawn and bring their numbers back up.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Second case of dropsy
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2017, 10:01:21 PM »
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Sorry to hear about your fish.  :(

Offline TrenchyLs

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Re: Second case of dropsy
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 12:31:23 AM »
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Thanks @Sue
I'm not optimistic about saving her but I can just write her off without trying.
I'll just keep my fingers crossed for the rest and get some clove oil this weekend in case things get worse  :(

Thanks @Littlefish
They are lovely little fish (no pun intended) but a bit too small and "fishy" to get really attached to.  Now if it was Lefty, the bullied Gourami or my Pleco from the other tank I would be gutted because they both seem to have real character.
Although, at the risk of sounding callous, they aren't the cheapest fish to keep dying on me.

Offline MarquisMirage

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Re: Second case of dropsy
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2017, 07:22:03 PM »
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Sorry to read about your fishy loses.  Sadly inbreeding and weak stock is a common issue with quite a few fish that are captive bred as Sue has pointed out.  I don't think you're being callous as for the price of CPD's you should expect a bit more.

Offline TrenchyLs

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Re: Second case of dropsy
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2017, 08:08:16 PM »
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Well, as expected my sick little fish didn't make it :( 

I'm now watching the tank like a hawk for any early indications of problems.  Everybody seems fine, so hopefully I won't come back from work on Monday to a third casualty!
 
@marquismirage I was hoping that they would be better quality since they came from MA in Belton.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Second case of dropsy
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 08:23:32 PM »
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Sorry to hear about your fish.  :(

Fingers crossed for the rest of your tank.

Offline MarquisMirage

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Re: Second case of dropsy
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2017, 08:52:30 PM »
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@TrenchyLs Although the MA stores are franchise they most likely order fish from a centralised wholesaler.  It's not they have comparatively bad fish it's just the way it is with CPD's overall.

Offline Hampalong

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Re: Second case of dropsy
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 05:16:03 AM »
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If it's any consolation dropsy is nearly always incurable. It isn't a disease but a symptom, being a build up of fluid in the body cavity (where it shouldn't be). There can be many causes but usually it means some kind of organ- or system-failure, and by the time it's noticed it's usually too late. It can be cured sometimes, for instance when caused by infection, but when the scales are sticking out there's not much chance.

With them being freshwater fish salt will only add to the stress.

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