Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Health => Topic started by: fcmf on December 10, 2019, 07:28:06 PM
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https:///youtu.be/7hDqiGWd5pI
This is the large female cardinal tetra who over-eats - any views on whether her breathing is a cause for concern?
Everyone else fine apart from the various age-related conditions. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 25 or just under.
Saw a similar post to this, and success with an airstone. In the event that I were to get an airstone, what would be the smallest and least obtrusive one available?
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Have you just fed them? If you have I would give it a couple of hours. Things may well return to normal...
I always recommend these air pumps -small and silent. I have one running a filter sponge for my Betta.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Interpet-Nano-Aquamini-Aquarium-Tanks/dp/B00IF9NW62 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Interpet-Nano-Aquamini-Aquarium-Tanks/dp/B00IF9NW62)
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:cheers:
I noticed she was breathing like this throughout yesterday evening, several hours after dinner time (and actually what prompted the water testing this morning). It seems to be irrespective of whether recently eaten or not - although everyone is guilty of stealing snail food at all times of the day...
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The aforementioned cardinal tetra is huge. I decided to view from above, with filter off, to get a better gauge of her size. To my surprise, I can actually see the scales are pineconed. This isn't clear when generally looking in the tank but is from above. Having had a goldfish with dropsy in the past, there was no mistaking it due to a fish of that size. However, on a juvenile cardinal tetra (3 months old), it's barely noticeable and just looks like a slight fuzziness.
Epsom salt bath and/or hospitalise for bacterial infection?
Edited to add photo - terrible quality but it shows her size .v. another fish underneath her.
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Afraid to say I've never had a good result when dropsy is noticed I believe it is usually too late. I would go with both treatments, definately Epsom salt dips asap to bring things back in control quickly. You might have to prepare for the worst here though I fear...
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I've been humming and hawing over this. From the side, the pineconed scales aren't obvious. The breathing wasn't as rapid. Yet I definitely saw them when the filter was off and viewing her from above. I actually forgot to feed them dinner and have just put a pea in - she's eaten half of it all by herself. I have an hour before "lights off" - maybe worth treating her just before then (by which time her dinner might have digested?) but before she enters the "potentially too late to save" phase?
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Epsom salt bath done. Not sure who was more traumatised - me or the fish. She seemed very alarmed to begin with, then went very still, then quivered throughout. Occasionally, she darted round the container as though attempting to escape, so I had to place the lid over the top on three occasions in case she leaped out.
A small amount of Epsom salt water (0.1 L) probably entered the main tank - hoping this will be alright for the other fish and nerite snails...
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Sorry I missed this yesterday. Any updates today?
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Thanks. She doesn't look any different. Breathing fast. Mooching around with the others. Light not on yet, and need light on plus filter off and decor removed from the tank to view properly from above.
Not sure I can bear the thought of putting her (or myself!) through another Epsom salt bath. [That read as though she and I were getting in the bath together - not the case!] Not sure I can bear the thought of putting her through another Epsom salt bath.
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Thanks. She doesn't look any different. Breathing fast. Mooching around with the others. Light not on yet, and need light on plus filter off and decor removed from the tank to view properly from above. Not sure I can bear the thought of putting her (or myself!) through another Epsom salt bath. [That read as though she and I were getting in the bath together - not the case!] Not sure I can bear the thought of putting her through another Epsom salt bath.
:rotfl:
We know that if you thought getting in a salt bath with her would help, that you would do it. ;D
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Afraid to say I've never had a good result when dropsy is noticed I believe it is usually too late. I would go with both treatments, definately Epsom salt dips asap to bring things back in control quickly. You might have to prepare for the worst here though I fear...
Hi @fcmf
I agree with @Matt above. Once the swelling is apparent, the condition of the fish usually degenerates. I seem to recall having read that the swelling is caused by failure of a fish's kidneys. I had this problem a few months ago with a Siamese Algae Eater. It was awful to witness the extreme swelling. I had to resort to euthanasia. Never easy. :(
JPC
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Update, now that the light is on, is that she is mooching around as normal but is breathing very fast. No food has been put in the tank for several hours. It's the scales on the underside of the belly - the white ones in the case of the cardinal tetra's colouring - that seem to be distended but I don't know whether this is due to obesity from over-eating or fluid swelling. Argh - after the stress of the other day's attempt and lack of difference that it made, I can't decide whether to give her another Epsom salt bath or not... maybe I'll do that now and consider starting eSHa 2000 this evening...
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Did you do another salt bath?
How is she?
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Yes, both of us were traumatised for the full duration - I couldn't take my eyes off her for fear she would leap out or keel over as she was shuddering throughout. Again, the salt bath made no difference. I'm sparing her any further trauma, so no medication - just letting her enjoy the evening with her tankmates. She's mooching around with them at normal levels in the tank but breathing heavily.
I'd say she's fourth in line for potential imminent fatalities - but she has the benefit of youth on her side. Says it all that, when I approach the tank, I'm peering towards the water surface first for potential lifeless bodies and then the substrate before looking in the water column to do a headcount...
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Argh - I hate these decisions!
She's breathing extremely fast but otherwise behaving normally - someone not particularly interested in their fishtank probably wouldn't even notice a problem (indeed, I had to point this out to Mr FCMF). Her belly/white scales are definitely distended and some of her other scales look generally ruffled/fluffy- again, not particularly noticeable (I had to point this out to Mr FCMF) and might just look like normal variation given her large size. However, the two in combination make me feel I need to do something...
Not sure if there's much point in an Epsom salt bath given that the previous two have made little/no difference, and not sure if I want to remove her for eSHa 2000 medication which will mean she's away from her tankmates for several days... Maybe a case for the Melafix or Easylife Voogle which can be added to the main tank... ???
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I wish I could give you a definitive answer that would help, but I don't feel as if I know enough about fish disease and medications to be of much use.
I can understand your point about the salt baths, and after the trauma caused to both of you during the last one, I think I'd be reluctant to repeat that. I can also understand not wanting to remove her from the tank, and wanting to keep her with her tankmates.
Hopefully the others will be able to point you in the right direction on this one.
Best of luck, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for both of you.
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Thanks, Littlefish. About half an hour ago, I moved her into the hospital tank as a "trial run" with eSHa 2000. I felt terrible, as the cardinals all shoaled up tightly to escape the jug, as though protecting her. Everyone else in the tank seemed to volunteer to get in it but the cardinals were having none of it. There was water everywhere as attempts to guide her in with a net resulted uprooting of the silk plants, wood getting caught against the net, etc. Eventually most of the cardinals ended up in the jug together and I had to try to get them out and leave her in, to transfer her to the hospital tank. She looked calmer in there than when in an Epsom salt bath, but I'm in the other room now and keeping my distance from Mr FCMF who always (and thankfully only ever) seems to get annoyed with me when water spillages occur and the hospital tank is in use and taking up valuable space. :-[
Updated to add: Just nipped through to check up on her. She was at one end of the tank, watching her tankmates in the main tank. Not sure if it was intrigue, comfort, wistfulness, envy or frustration, or to what degree fish might experience these emotions - certainly they can be very inquisitive. Uncharacteristically, they were in an unusual location at the front edge of the tank, so must have been watching her too.
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I don't know what to suggest. If she's eating and swimming normally, there is hope. All you can do is see if the medication helps her.
But if she stops eating and swimming, you have only one option I'm afraid.
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Update is that she's had 2 dosages of the 3-day course and is still alive. However, the situation is not pretty. She's very pale being in the hospital tank, in contrast to what was her full colouring in the main tank. The scales are definitely standing out, very noticeably on the white underside and on the washed-out blue parts when viewed from above. I just hope the isolation and treatment aren't contributing to the stress and causing this. She seems to alternate between cowering under the filter at one end and watching her tankmates from the other end, generally locating herself away from wherever I am. She's not eating but I do think this is due to the isolation and treatment.
My hope is that she makes it through to complete the 3-day course and back into the main tank alive. Rather than extend the treatment and prolong any stress, I'm keen that she is returned to her tankmates for potential improvement, ideally with me having given her a chance through the medication. If she succumbs there, then so be it - better there than on her own in the hospital tank which she is clearly not enjoying (but I feel medication is needed to give her a chance).
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Is it worth trying peas to get rid of any potential internal blockage - if only to rule this out? Though I note you said she had stopped eating. Are the scales just sticking out round the belly?
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The cardinals tend to ignore the peas but she was devouring them earlier in the week for what must have been the first time, shortly before her first Epsom salt bath. I fear she may associate peas preceding the trauma of Epsom salt baths, so, if she continues to live, I do wonder if she'll ever eat them again.
I don't actually think there is an internal blockage, though - like the former x-ray tetra, I think she just eats a lot which accounts for her large size, but there seems to be swelling/bloating generally plus the protruding scales.
I only really noticed the protruding scales around the belly initially, and they are most pronounced there, but it's also evident to a lesser extent the length of her sides higher up, if viewed from above - it's almost as though she's squeezed herself in a tight space and 'ruffled' her scales so that they have a blurry look.
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Fingers crossed that the medication helps and she can go back to the main tank.
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Thanks.
Video and photo attached - terrible quality but definitely highlights how pale she is and the raised/ruffled scales.
https:///youtu.be/b0_2wmOdTls
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Good to see what were dealing with. I share your concerns for her.
Let us all know how things are in the morning and we can take it from there.
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The situation is much the same, I think.
I'd really like to move her into the main tank ASAP as I think the company of her tankmates would vastly help - restore her colour and eating, at least.
However, I think I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow to do so. I need to double the dose of eSHa 2000 as got very soft water, so 4/2/2 drops on Days 1-3. I was nervous about exposing her to 4 drops at once, though, so gave her 2 drops on 14th late afternoon and the other 2 on 15th morn (effectively that would have been Day 1's dosage), then gave her the next 2 drops on 16th morn and the third and final set of 2 drops this/17th morn.
I think the best plan is probably to leave her in that until tomorrow morning - just hope she survives another night on her own - then gradually dilute the QT over the course of tomorrow by regularly removing the water and replenishing it with the main tank's water, with carbon in the QT's filter. Hopefully, by the evening, she'll be able to be moved across, and, by then, will be expelling less copper-based eSHa 2000 so that the snails in the main tank aren't affected in any way.
Does this sound sensible? I would prefer to have her moved over this evening but would probably need to start the dilution process late afternoon by which time she wouldn't have had the full benefit of the eSHa 2000 course - just 6 hours of the Day 3 dose.
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I agree with your plan for leaving her in the QT until tomorrow, then doing the slow acclimatisation before moving her back to the main tank.
Best of luck.
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Thanks, all.
The situation each day has been that she looks a little better in the mornings before administering the medication, then, as soon as medication is administered, spends the rest of the day cowering by the filter or at the other end watching her tankmates in the main tank (although this didn't happen yesterday - the entire day was spent by the filter). Presumably it takes almost 24 hours in the latest medication dosage to get accustomed to it.
This morning, she was in the usual morning fettle, moving around a bit more. As I've been diluting the QT back to more standard tank conditions, she's perked up more and more. However, her scales are still protruding - https:///youtu.be/3juqd2bkF50 - and she's still breathing fast and resembles a puffer fish straight on.
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Let us know if she's happier with her friends in the main tank. I hope so. :)
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Thanks, both. Moved her across about an hour ago, in part because Mr FCMF was getting increasingly frustrated with the hospital tank taking up space, water transfers (and spillages), and my instructions not to cross-contaminate eSHa2000 equipment with main tank equipment. Although she looks like she's been through a washing machine on the spin cycle, and is breathing very heavily, she certainly seems to be pottering around otherwise normally, including pecking at bits of food in the silk plants. From a mental wellbeing type perspective, I think it's been a good move.
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Glad to hear that she's pottering around in the main tank. :)
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Update:
She's continuing to potter around. Yesterday evening, the other cardinals kept pushing her out of the way when she came near their close-knit group (possibly sensing illness or medication or shunning her as no longer a 'member' of their group) but this is happening less today, and/or she's choosing to swim elsewhere, exploring the silk plants. I'm not sure that she's actually eaten yet. With the ongoing rapid breathing, she may well ingest food. The 'porcupine' look is less marked, and her colouring is only slightly less vibrant than the others. I'm glad I've tried 2 Epsom salt baths plus a course of eSHa 2000. No idea what direction this is going to go but, on balance, I definitely feel I did the right thing by returning her to the main tank rather than extending the treatment regimen which would have elongated her evident stress in isolation in the hospital tank.
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The cardinal came swimming towards me just now. She seems to have developed a bubble on her flank. Hopefully not gas bubble disease - I'm careful to ensure the boiling water is mixed carefully with the cold water prior to inclusion in the tank and, in the dilution process a couple of days ago, replenished the QT water with water directly out of the main tank but I see that it's also caused by increased pressure and it is very possible that the last water change (90%) was completed too swiftly.
:vcross: :vcross: :vcross:
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I've had a good look at her since the lights came on. The bubble seems to have moved location which is odd. She's no better, no worse than she has been since return to the main tank. Her behaviour is similar. She behaves as though she's heading towards food but doesn't seem to actually eat it- possibly still off her food since the medication treatment. She's still paler, especially in the red parts, than the other cardinals; the blue parts higher up on her flanks and the white parts on her underside have a ruffled look as though she's been towel-dried or has a slight coating of something on her*. There is something similar to what I recall from the pygmy cories - it looks as though she has a normal fin and a white stump/pustule where the counterpart fin would be. However, these fins look like extra ones in comparison with the other cardinals - they're between the pectoral and pelvic fins. Another aspect I've noticed is that, when rapidly breathing the other day, the inside of her mouth looked reddish; I wasn't sure if this was normal or not, but, when continuing to rapidly breathe today, it's now pale-coloured.
*Edited to add: on closer inspection of the blue parts higher up on her flanks, it looks as though there's a top layer of clear-coloured scales that are shedding or ready to shed.
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I'm sorry to say that I'm having to 'close the loop' on this story. The cardinal tetra, who had been hovering just above the silk plants last weekend / at the start of the week, sadly died during the week - she was found dead among the leaves of a silk plant. Inspecting her body, she was definitely more pineconed, so there's no doubt that this was a dropsy-like illness which sadly neither the Epsom salt dips nor the eSHa 2000 solved. I'm not sure that there is anything more that I could have done for her.
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I also suspect there was nothing more that could be done. Dropsy generally indicates organ failure so really I think you went above and beyond here. Sorry to hear of her passing nevertheless.
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Sorry to hear that your cardinal tetra has passed.
You did so much for her, you had both fought so hard for a better outcome, and I don't think that there was anything more that could be done. :(
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It is always sad when a fish passes but you did the best you could.
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Thanks, all - your kind words mean a lot to me.