Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Health => Topic started by: fcmf on June 10, 2015, 08:26:53 AM
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NB. The title sounds more alarmist than the situation actually is.
Last week, I had the first tank fatality when a pygmy cory died after looking very weak and washed-out for almost a week. Since then, the tank has "livened up" (no grieving in this tank!) with the x-ray tetras' appetites back and both the x-ray tetras and pygmy cories very active.
I've now noticed that two of the remaining five cories have lost the bottom portion of their tail fins ie where the tail fin normally has two portions, the bottom one has vanished in each case. This is a new occurrence, and I'm assuming it may be happening when they're pairing up/playing and chasing one another in groups of 2-3. In both cases, it's "clean" ie there's no fin rot or anything else untoward.
I've also noticed that another cory, which had a white, slightly raised and almost pinhead-sized, dot on its caudal peduncle area (ie the portion just before the tail) last Fri but which disappeared the following day, has had this white dot reappear this morning. This particular cory has a slightly odd swimming action which I've noticed over the past month - at first, I'd put this down to overeating / swimbladder-like bloat from when the tetras' appetites were reduced (fantail goldfish had this in the past but which resolved itself after a laxative(pea)-induced 'clearout') but have recently noticed that there's a curvature along the stripe as though it has a bent spine - its front body is at a slightly different angle to its back body which tends to droop down.
I must emphasise that all pygmies are eating well and are very active - the two liveliest being Huge Cory who currently seems hyperactive and swimming constantly up and down the glass (which is one with a missing tail portion) and Bent Spine Cory (which is one with this intermittent white dot on its caudal peduncle), and probably most folk wouldn't even notice these particular features on their fish but I just happen to spend a fair amount of time by the tank.
Water parameters are as reliable/steady as always - no ammonia or nitrites, nitrates ~10, PH 6.4, etc.
Presumably, in both cases (missing tail portions and white dot/bent spine), given that this is having no adverse effect on behaviour, I leave "as is" and just keep an eye on the situation?
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I wouldn't worry about the missing tail bits. But I have no idea about the spot & bent spine I'm afraid. Keep a close eye on that one.
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I had a bronze cory with a curved spine. Generally it seemed to prosper for a long time. It was smaller than the other cories but apart from that was a little buzzsaw. Sadly, I lost it in a general tank conflagration caused by my hospitalisation a couple of years ago.
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Thanks, folks. Mysteriously, the white dot (which seemed to be protruding slightly by 1-2mm) on the pygmy cory has vanished today, with absolutely no sign of a scar or anything where it was - strange.
Theoretically, I could transfer the new harlequins into the main tank this w/end, but, after reading today's postings, I'm taking cold feet... Very tempting to turn the quarantine tank into a permanent feature, with harmony reigning in each...
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As an update on the above posts, Huge Cory lost the remainder of his tail about a week later - I witnessed another pygmy cory bite it and another section out of the other cory's tail. Since then, he has remained hyperactive but was lying completely on his side on a plant leaf one day last week and still hadn't moved several hours later or when I lifted the tank lid, so I went to remove him, only for him to torpedo round the tank and resume his hyperactive swimming up and down the glass; I can only assume that a fortnight of hyperactive swimming had worn him out and he was taking a much-needed rest. However, this morning, he was struggling to go up to the tank surface to take a gulp of air, and was rolling around quite a bit when trying to swim. On return from work, he was doing the same, and also looked very washed-out like Dead Cory looked in the couple of days before he died 2.5 wks ago, so I immediately moved him into the small container and noticed that his tail stump is slightly red, so have treated him with a generic medication (Aquarium Munster Medi Mor, which I bought from my LFS as it doesn't sell the eSHa products which folk here generally recommend) which treats fin rot among other conditions.
Quarter Tail Cory seems to be fine although has had to adapt his swimming slightly, mainly to set off from a sitting down position.
Two cories, both long and thin, and one of which is the biting-tail culprit, seem to be fine - I'll refrain from naming them Healthy Cory 1 and Healthy Cory 2, to prevent tempting fate.
Bent Spine Cory with the white fleck which comes and goes (usually but not always on a Thurs, but which disappears on a Fri - before the Sat'dy water change, so not connected with building nitrates) has been doing fine but was lying on a plant leaf, completely on his back/upside down, yesterday afternoon; after waiting a while, when I went to remove him, he torpedoed off round the tank and seems to be fine although the white fleck is evident. I'm wondering if he may have found that lying on his back actually provided some relief for his bent and presumably weighty spine.
My questions therefore are:
* do I set up the QT this evening and move Huge Cory into that to treat him? [I don't want to leave him in the small container with only 4L water and no filter or heater for too long. I can move one of the two filters across into the QT and have a spare heater. I think he may struggle to reach the water surface to get his gasp of air until he's feeling a bit better.]
* do I move Bent Spine Cory and possibly even Quarter Tail Cory in with him to treat them as a precaution (or maybe even all 5 cories), and give him some company?
AND/OR
* do I treat the entire mainstream tank (which houses the x-ray tetras and harlequin rasboras)?
NB. Water readings have continued to remain exactly the same as per original post, even with the addition of the harlequins recently.
Thanks in advance for your help.
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I would move all three and treat them in the QT. I don't like adding meds to the main tank unless I have to. But keep the water as low as the heater and filter will allow so that Huge Cory doesn't have far to swim to get to the surface.
I have had problems recently with pygmy cories dying. I've lost three since the beginning of the year. Maybe something about the species that is more delicate than we realise :-\
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Thanks, Sue - treatment has been underway for a few days now. It has definitely helped Huge Cory's struggling and rolling which have stopped but I fear he may have finrot as the posterior part of his dorsal fin looked eroded and his body looked shorter yesterday evening. However, I'm determined to give him and the others the best possible chance of pulling through this - and he seems pleased to have company now in the QT, having spent the first night on his own.
When treatment eventually ceases, ought I to change the filter media or would a quick rinse in some to-be-discarded water from the main tank suffice? [I had moved the second filter in its entirety into the QT.]
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Unless you have something that would be harmed by even a trace of meds (I'm thinking shrimps and snails) a rinse in old main tank water should be fine. If you do have shrimps and/or snails, either discard the media and replace with new, or run the separate tank with carbon in the filter for a few days before moving the fish back. This should get rid of any med lingering in the filter media.
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Thanks, Sue - no shrimps/snails, so I'll proceed accordingly.
Fish in the quarantine tank have been very lethargic and not eating - possibly the lack of stimulation from other tankmates or the lack of substrate to forage in isn't helping, or perhaps it's the effect of the medication - but I'm hoping that the rest that they're having may ultimately help them to heal.
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Huge Cory died overnight, and most likely late last night judging by how he looks. 3 days ago, I'd mentioned that his dorsal fin and body looked eroded although I wasn't so sure of this the last couple of days. Examining him now, I think they look ok but there is definite, unmistakable red streaking around his vent area and possibly around one if not both gills - is this definitely finrot? His abdomen/chest has always looked big and one of the reasons I called him Huge Cory but I do now wonder if dropsy was involved in any way too (although I tend to think of pineconing of the scales which wasn't the case but, of course, cories don't have scales...).
On the basis of this, how much of a water change ought I to be doing on the quarantine tank - would 50% be ok? Irrespective of presence of ammonia or not, it feels like I ought to be doing some sort of a water change to reduce/remove any toxins from a dead fish having been lying there overnight for the sake of the other fish in there. The last of 3 dosages is scheduled to be applied today which I would do after the water change.
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The water change is a good idea, just before the med dose.
Red around the vent and gills suggests something else going on. The red vent vent is an indicator of an internal infection which could be bacterial, viral or protozoan, especially if you also suspect dropsy. I've never noticed other fish coming down with dropsy when the odd one of mine has had it; it's always been just the one affected fish, then a couple of years later another one. Red gills can be anything from ammonia in the water to maybe even just the body shape pulling the gill covers more open than usual so you can see inside better.
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Hi Sue and fcmf,
Sorry to hijack this thread, but in this kind of situation, does ESHA 2000 do any good? I just wondered because I was checking the use by dates of my fish meds (need more ESHA 2000 because I'm running out and I like to have it in for any illness that might crop up).
The instructions do say that it combats bacterial and parasitic infections, so would you give this a go in the situation that fcmf is in?
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If I had fish with the symptoms of fcmf's fish, eSHa 2000 is the med I would use. It is what I used when my previous betta had what I thought was finrot - bits missing from the edge of his tail. [In the end I decided it was just him, the edges of his tail became ragged shortly after I got him, they never got better and they never got worse in 23 months]
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Ok, thanks Sue.
Fcmf, I do hope your fishy health problems resolve themselves soon!
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Sorry for your loss fcmf.
Hope the other cory makes it
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Thanks, Sue/Diz1/Sanjo.
Turns out that the second of two LFSs sell eSHa 2000, so, rather than dosing the QT with the third dosage of MediMor (its dosage was Days 1,2,7), I did the 50% water change (although water parameters were all fine), gave the filter sponges a thorough squeeze into old tank water from the established tank, and have now dosed the QT with the eSHa 2000.
I've always been so diligent with thorough siphoning and water changes every 5-7 days, and almost always a mid-week siphon-less smaller change change. Water parameters have always been very good with steady results. I just wonder if the Tetra Delica treat that I've put in every now and again has had any part to play...
Anyway, fingers crossed that the eSHa 2000 works for the remaining fish...
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Today is the third/final day of dosing the QT with eSHa 2000. I'm beginning to think that lack of social stimulation is now the bigger issue despite a still tail-less fish and a fish with a wound and two bends in its spine ie dorsal fins are erect, eyes look bright, etc, and the sitting on the bottom seems to be more of a boredom issue, so perhaps re-integration into the main tank soon is wise.
When moving the filter back into the established tank as its second filter, will the good colonies of bacteria still be present/able to reactivate, if the filter had been supporting 17 fish in the main tank and then suddenly only ~2 in the QT for the past 10 days? Ought I to go ahead with the original plan (ie a good squeeze of the filter media in old tank water from the main tank, just as I did after Huge Cory's death alongside the 50% water change in the QT) OR, given that Huge Cory may have been suffering from something more complex, ought I to discard this old media (or would we assume that it's fine, given that the remaining fish in the QT have not been adversely affected) and put in new filter media, with a little bit of mature media from filter 1?
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If you already have a filter in the main tank and you are replacing this second filter back there I'm sure it will soon re-establish itself.
I can only speak from my own very limited experience and from what I have gleaned from experts like Sue but it really hasn't taken any time for my filters which have been moved from one tank to another to be back up and running.
As I understand it, the fact that there were only two fish providing the ammonia for a 10 day period would mean that some of the bacteria will have shut down, be it dead or asleep.
There will still be some in it because of the two fish activating it so in theory the bacteria should soon multiply and build back up again. I'm sure Sue told me that if there are two filters and a certain amount of fish you can still only have 100% between the two filters, not 100% cycled for EACH filter.
Did I get that right Sue? or is it something else I misunderstood/dreamt up? (I'm really good at that!)
If the 17 fish in the main tank have a filtered cycle in with them they won't atually need the second filter initially will they. They make do with the bacteria in the current filter until such time as the baceria divide themselves between the two filters.
Help ! Sue am I talking a load of rubbish :-[
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When they were both in the main tank, the bacteria population would have been split between the two filters in proportion to the size of their media. And don't forget that a good portion of the bacteria will be on the glass, substrate and all the decor/plants so the filters combined would have had less than 100% of the total.
If there is no disease in the QT filter, put it back in the main tank. The remaining filter, and the surfaces, will have increased their bacteria numbers after the QT filter was removed and the 'spare' bacteria in the QT filter will still be there, though they may have become dormant by now. If you move the filter back with the fish, all that will happen is that you'll have a few too many bacteria so the 'spare' ones will go dormant and eventually die.
Should you decide not to put the filter back, adding 2 fish to the main tank will cause no problems as it is safe to remove up a third of the media when seeding a new tank. But yes, put some new media in the QT filter, and move over some media from the other filter, placing it first in the direction of water flow. This seeds the new filter and over a few weeks the bacteria will spread out into both filters in proportion to their size. Just like us, bacteria are constantly dying and being replaced by new ones.
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Thanks - that's helpful.
It will be difficult to tell if there is/isn't disease in the QT filter. I'd be keen to have a second filter in the main tank, though, as the current filter only has a waterfall/plunge effect and no surface agitation at all, whereas the second filter skims and circulates the water surface. It also gives me peace of mind, just in case one breaks down.
There is another option - I could use a third filter which I have but which has been out-of-commission for 50 weeks. It's probably too bulky for the main tank but would be ok in the QT as the QT has little by way of decor and fish in it. I could transfer all of the QT filter media into it for a day or two and have it running in the QT, while "decontaminating" the current QT filter's hardware, perhaps by letting it sit in Milton sterilising solution, then sit overnight in dechlorinated water. Would that help at all to ensure any "decontamination"?
PS. Sorry - this probably should be in the "Filtration" section of the forum but thought might be easier kept along with the other content, as it'll be hopefully my last posting on the topic.
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What would you do long term with the media currently in the QT? If you intend returning it to the main tank there is no point in sterilising the QT's hardware. And if you intend throwing it away, you don't need to keep it running in the QT.
It is difficult to sterilise media without the risk of contaminating the tank - for instance Milton can be tricky to remove even with over dosed dechlorinator. An media is quite cheap compared to the 'hardware' if you want to sterlise the filter, get new media.
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As an update on this, following treatment and a few extra days in the QT, I "decommissioned" the QT. In the past few days:
* Tail-less Cory has been settling in better in the main tank after initially remaining subdued - he is now happily foraging away like his peers and adapting well to his tail-less state.
* Bent Spine Cory's spine seems to have rectified itself in both fracture-like sites and his swimming action is with his caudal fin swishing from side to side rather than plunging up and down, so much so that, if it weren't for the healing wound, he wouldn't be distinguishable from his two normal peers.
Fingers crossed, all will remain well, but I'll continue to keep the close eye on them and all the other fish, as well as the water quality, as I always do.