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Moonbeam/ Betta Bloated Stomach

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Offline Ally2

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Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« on: June 26, 2017, 10:07:39 PM »
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Hi
I'm still struggling withmoonbeam . I've tried feeding him minimal amounts e.g. 1-2 pellets a day , or alternative with frozen daphnia. In the morning his stomach seems not so big and he's bit more lively . But when I feed him particularly in the evening his stomach bulges and he lays at the bottom heavy breathing and slightly to the side . He will then dart up to the surface get some air , then do back down . This only seems to happen after I've fed him ! He's only had two pellets today ? And one yesterday .
I tried an Epsom salt bath yesterday.
I'm wondering if this is swim bladder .
I'm thinking of stopping the pellets altogether and just giving him daphnia.
The pellets are omega one .
His scales still aren't raised at the moment. Is it ok to feed just daphnia ? And also as it's frozen how many bits should I be putting in ? When I say bits it breaks up into tiny pieces when in the water .
Ally

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2017, 10:29:47 PM »
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Sorry to hear that you are still having problems with Moonbeam.
I don't know enough about this sort of thing to be of much help either, but I hope that someone will be able to help you to resolve the bloating problem.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 08:21:31 AM »
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Sorry to hear that you're still struggling with M.  I can completely empathise as I had two goldfish, at separate times, who each struggled with swimbladder malfunction problems - one who spent her entire final year either on the bottom of the tank as though a lead weight were tied to her or floating upside down on the surface and especially after meals, and another who spent increasing time hanging around at the top of the tank and always after meals (along with other health problems).  It became a matter of constantly monitoring the situation, and adapting/modifying what I did in response to that.

On the basis of my own experience, I would advocate:
*feeding as little as possible, spread out as often as you can - this might involve attempting to break up each pellet into smaller pieces and/or using an auto-feeder to dispense small amounts of food across the day
*pre-soaking the pellet if it's a floating pellet

I would not advocate stopping the pellets altogether and just feeding him daphnia - the pellets will contain the nutrients he requires. My mistake with the first goldfish I mentioned was to stop feeding her flakes and pellets for several weeks, and only feeding her veg, during which she suddenly improved and starting swimming like her old self for a couple of days - but then died of what an aquatic vet thought was malnutrition. My mistake with the second goldfish mentioned was to reduce feeding so much that I suspect what I did manage to feed him was far too small a quantity for such a large fish :'( - this is less likely to happen in the case of your smaller fish but I still think it's an important lesson. If I were you, I would still try to ensure one or two pellets a day, but spread out in "instalments" over the course of the day - or possibly every second day, but no less frequently than this.

As for the daphnia, I have cubes of frozen food but I tend to cut each cube with a sharp knife into halves or quarters, and just feed a quarter or half a cube at a time.

Also, with swimbladder malfunction problems, I tried aquarium salt which was often beneficial - so the Epsom salt bath which you tried might become a frequent part of the regime - and occasionally tried medication for bacterial infection when in its worst phases, and which actually helped too.

Hope that's useful.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2017, 07:44:40 PM »
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Hi
Thanks for your replies . I will try soaking the pellets . I feed morning and evening so have always done this rather than giving all at once. I'm looking at him and one side looks like he has a white ball on his side. I'm going to try to take a photo and post . Interesting what you said about your gold fish and that they lived for a year with this problem . Luckily I've managed to keep the hortwart and frogbit alive and he wiggles in them and they provide a resting place near the surface , as he breaths at the surface . I have been googling fish videos of fish with swim bladder and he's not looking like that in terms of swimming without direction or control or sinking. But it's totally out of character of him in this recent behaviour. When he's at the bottom he swims very strongly to the surface . But he's not swimming around exploring like he used to .
I will give him pellets as I don't want to starve him . Withholding food doesn't seem to work anyway .
Ally

Offline fcmf

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 07:29:08 PM »
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Quite a few people try different methods of "managing" swimbladder malfunction eg http://www.telegraph.co.uk/pets/news-features/man-makes-wheelchair-disabled-goldfish/ and http://uk.businessinsider.com/disabled-goldfish-sweden-pet-owner-floating-harness-swim-bladder-disease-2017-5 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mheKCn3POXo However, from what I've read, often the fish ends up with ulcer-like problems elsewhere, so not necessarily the best course of action to try these.

Swimbladder problems can manifest themselves in different ways - sinking like a lead weight, floating up like a helium balloon, rolling from side to side, floating upside down, or generally resting near the surface or at the bottom. What you describe sounds like it could be that too, but the underlying cause might be the growth / white ball ie if pressing internally, it could be pressing on the swimbladder, causing it to malfunction rather than do its job properly. Does it look like it's on the inside or more external?

Some fish can live with a growth for some time; for others, they don't live long. When did you last administer medication? I'm just wondering whether it might be worth trying a course of eSHa 2000 to see if that helps reduce the white ball growth... It might be worth giving it a go, but let us know first when you last administered medication, so that we can help work out the best course of action.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 08:37:45 PM »
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Hi
After thinking long about this I decided to re try the medicine . I have both esha 200 and myazin ( not sure I've spelt that right) when he first started getting big I did treat him for five days with the myxazin . After that I tried Epsom salt baths .
The growth looks internal it's pushing from the inside .
I started today with the myxazin my only concern is on the bottle it says it's no good after 12 months . I think I opened around Nov 2016 . Is this still good or should I order a new bottle or try something else as this didn't work last time about 6 weeks ago .
I just did a 5 litre water change and added the myazixn .
I'm concerned I'm not doing enough water changes as swim bladder / dropsy can be caused by unclean water where bacterial has thrived .
I would like to check I'm doing correct water changes  . I have a 22 litres tank and change 10 litres  every week . I also clean all the sides , Hoover , and rinse the sponge and wool filter in tank water .
Should I up this ? And do twice weekly but less of a water change midweek?

Offline fcmf

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 08:12:39 AM »
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If the Myxazin was opened in Nov 2016, it is still within the 12 months and therefore fine. I used a bottle of Interpet medicine once which had been open for several years - and it brought my goldfish back to life from what seemed like certain death, and he went on to live another 4+ years, so, personally (although not everyone would agree with me), I'd say an out-of-date medicine is better than none at all.

As you've started on the Myxazin, I'd complete its treatment course.

Your water change regime sounds fine. Like you, my water changes tend to be large - in my case, due to an over-active syphon. It is usually advised that they are 20-30% to avoid changing the water quality/parameters too much at once and which might shock the fish, but this (smaller-percentage water changes) can be difficult to do if the syphon is strong. A smaller water change mid-week, or, ideally 2 x 30% water changes per week (rather than 1 x 45% and 1 x 20%), sounds like a good plan. However, best to start on this new regime once the treatment course is over, so that you're not diluting the medication - or, worse, inadvertently overdosing it by attempting to compensate for any lost through a water change.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 01:14:29 PM »
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Hi
I do the larger water changes because it takes a bit of hoovering to remove the snail poo ! As it's a small tank I think the sponges fill up with dirt quicker so like the second bucket of tank water ( without the snail poo in) to rinse the sponges . Could go down to the two smaller water changes . I'm crossing my fingers this is going to work .
Thanks for your advise .

Offline fcmf

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 07:51:24 PM »
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I do the larger water changes because it takes a bit of hoovering to remove the snail poo !
I completely empathise with that, having recently got a nerite snail - I can't believe the amount of poo that comes out of a creature that size... more than the size of him, and far more in one day than all the fish poo in an entire week, and that's not counting the amount picked up and eaten by the very greedy and morbidly obese female tetra! :sick: I don't need to wonder where he's been as the trail of poo gives it away.

All the best.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 07:40:09 AM »
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Snails are huge producers of poo considering their size.
Relatively speaking I'd probably say that it's even more than by BN plecs, and they can produce a fair amount.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2017, 10:53:24 PM »
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Hi
I'm on day 5 of myazixn . No improvement of the lump . He's still swimming about a bit , but seems to tire easily then needs a rest . Had a water change today . He's still hungry and am feeding him two pellets morning and night .
Do you think it's worth me contacting a vet to see if I can get fish antibiotics ?
I don't know what else to do now . He seems quite happy but just doesn't swimmabout much . He still reacts to me walking in the room . The hornwart is a godsend as he uses it like a hammock !
Ally

Offline fcmf

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2017, 10:20:24 AM »
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I’d advise waiting for a few days to see if the treatment works – sometimes there’s a latent effect. Having said that, whatever it is may not be something which responds to it (or indeed any medication). His behaviour does sound very similar to that of my goldfish towards the end – it may be that he continues to live like this for many months but, as long as he’s not showing any signs of distress, it may just be a matter of getting used to this being the “new Moonbeam”. Remind me how old he is?

I think he probably needs a rest from medication for now – it can be quite stressful to be subject to medication so it should only be used if absolutely necessary. However, his response or lack of response to this medication is helpful for us in terms of potentially eliminating what the problem may be. There might be no harm in contacting an aquatic vet for their views on what the problem might be – it may not be something which can be addressed, antibiotics may or may not be useful, and the vet may even offer to do some examinations/scans or potentially surgery to get to the root of and treat the problem, so it may be worth deciding whether this is a route you wish to be explored (ie to bring him in to the vet’s for this).

Hope that’s helpful.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2017, 08:36:54 PM »
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Hi
I contacted my vet who doesn't deal with fish. I'm not keen on taking him to a vet as the one I read about isn't that close .  I got him last June 2016 . I assume he might have been 6 months when I got him ? So that makes him around 18 months ? If they only live two years he's getting on a bit . Which I hadn't thought of .
I have clove oil now in case I need it . But would like the to know the amounts to use .
The only thing I've not explored Is parasites .
I've not seen any evidence of this as in stringy poos . Is there any chance he could have parasites ?

Offline Sue

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2017, 09:32:00 PM »
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Since you've had him for a year you'd have known before now if it was parasites.


If he is not suffering, I would not use the clove oil yet. You'll know if he is suffering if he just lies on his side on the tank bottom and won't eat anything.


If it does come to that, you will need a small screw top bottle or jar and a tub big enough to hold him in water. And preferably a pair of rubber gloves as the smell of clove oil penetrates the skin.
Place the fish in the tub with some tank water. Put about 20 drops of clove oil to the bottle/jar, add some water and shake well until the oil is thoroughly dispersed in the water. Pour the oil & water mixture into the tub a bit at a time till it's all in the tub. He will slowly go to sleep. Leave him in the tub for at least an hour because clove oil is an anaesthetic and if not left long enough the fish can wake up.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2017, 11:03:06 PM »
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Hi Sue
With regards to the clove oil , how much water do I put in the tub ?
I'm not doing it yet as he's still eating and can get to the top ok . I just want to be prepared with the details written down somewhere .
Who knows he might get better . I live in hope .
Does anyone know how what happens with a tumour ? I don't know what to expect ?
Ally

Offline Sue

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2017, 09:51:36 AM »
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Half fill the tub with tank water; there needs to be enough depth so the fish can be upright but you also need to leave room for the clove oil/water mix.

With tumours I think the fish just gradually gets weaker until it no longer swims or eats. The danger for anabatids (bettas, gouramis) is if they can't swim, they can't gulp air so they may not last as long as other fish once they reach this stage.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2017, 01:05:26 PM »
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I'm not doing it yet as he's still eating and can get to the top ok . I just want to be prepared with the details written down somewhere .
Who knows he might get better . I live in hope .
Does anyone know how what happens with a tumour ? I don't know what to expect ?

Glad to read that you're not planning to do it yet - if indeed it is a tumour (benign or malignant), it might be that he can live with it and continue to eat and be interested in his environment, for many months yet, and that it's a matter of you adjusting to "the new Moonbeam" as I had to do with my beloved goldfish who had what I think was a tumour on his eye. I have read of goldfish living for years with tumours which neither worsened nor improved - but Sue's point about anabatids is very important.

I think this is a matter of just taking each day as it comes - rather than being either too optimistic or pessimistic re the outcome or even thinking ahead at all.

Although there needs to be sufficient water for him, it might be that, if he struggles to reach the surface to gulp air, you could lower the water level a bit - but ensuring that the filter and heater are still able to function properly, even if positioned at a lower level. This is a method often used with goldfish to minimise the stress involved to the fish when suffering from swimbladder malfunction and difficulty swimming up to reaching the surface or swimming down to forage at the bottom.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach / update
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2017, 08:39:52 PM »
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Hi
Everyone I've been trying this three times a day , I've put a small air stone in on one side of the tank to add oxygen . He seems quite perky. I'm not concerned about him not being able to reach the surface as he's a very clever fish and has worked out at least four ways to float near the top! One he lays on the thermometer , two he lies against the filter outlet , three he wedges himself in the hornwart and frogbit , four he lies on his almond leave . I will try to attach photos of his antics . If needed I can move the filter and thermometer and lower the water if he gets worse .
Been doing research and I've read you can give them daphnia or peas soaked in the juice of a garlic . This acts to kill parasites or as an antibiotic .
Is this something I could try ?

Offline Sue

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2017, 09:02:19 PM »
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You can even soak his pellets or flake (whichever you use) in garlic juice. It is indeed a mild antiseptic. It won't do any harm and it might help.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2017, 01:23:55 PM »
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Hi
I've tried two pellets in garlic juice . I will see how he goes . Then I know I've tried everything for him , and nature will have to take its course .
Thanks for all your help.
A

Offline Ally2

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach / garlic
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2017, 10:21:47 PM »
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Hi
All I did try moonbeam with the garlic juice soaked in both daphnia and pellets but no different was seen. He's still getting about and I've added a bubbler to his tank . I've also just ordered new life spectrum food as it's meant to be fab ! Fingers crossed for him .

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Moonbeam/ betta bloated stomach
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2017, 07:49:12 AM »
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Glad to hear that he is still eating and getting about.
i'm keeping my fingers crossed.

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