Tropical Fish Forum

Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Health => Topic started by: fcmf on November 08, 2018, 07:38:17 PM

Title: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 08, 2018, 07:38:17 PM
It would be helpful to get others' views on this.

In my main tank, I have 3 remaining male x-ray tetras from the original shoal of 6 (age 4), all 6 of the original shoal of harlequin rasboras (age 3.5), and 4 of the 8 recently purchased neon green rasboras (3 months). They just don't seem to be in optimum health, despite water testing pre- water changes (1 x 40% plus 1-2 x 10% per week) and water being consistently at 0, 0, 20 for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Problems are as follows:
* one x-ray tetra with cloudy / cataract-like eye which culminated in a pop-eye type situation, seemed to burst, leaving a flap of film over the eye which disappeared and left the eye seeming very flat and possibly blind, but the pop-eye situation has now recurred
* another x-ray tetra which intermittently has an injured eye, possibly through sparring with the former
* a harlequin rasbora which has been getting skinnier for many weeks now and who I haven't seen eating at all - he swims towards food and mixes in the feeding frenzy but doesn't actually eat anything, even when it falls or is put in front of or beside him and even when it's the favourite of garlic-infused brineshrimp; otherwise, his behaviour is fine albeit less active
* a harlequin rasbora which seemed to have scraped itself on something, this evolved into a hole-like ulcer not dis-similar to the female x-ray tetra who had this recurringly, then healed but looks as though it may be recurring
* one neon green rasbora with a raggedy tail (slightly torn, slightly speckly but never evolving completely into a fungus or whitespot) - this fish seems to have taken command of the tank, occupying the middle 60% width of it, with anyone in her space being chased away
* one neon green rasbora with the top portion of the caudal fin missing, and only a partial bottom portion; this looks as though it's just growing back when it disappears again
* one neon green rasbora with a non-full tail (ie the upper and lower portions of the caudal fin are pointier/thinner

The x-ray tetras' problems might be accounted for by a combination of sparring and becoming older. Reluctant though I am to admit it, the harlequins' problems seem to have coincided with the neon green rasboras' arrival, whether due to reduced swimming space in the same upper echelon of the tank and/or the greens' comparatively lively behaviour +/- one green's tendency to nip. I've witnessed a few nipping episodes and I'm trying to recall whether one of these was caused by a harlequin. Last week, I had a harlequin peck me quite strongly / with intent during the main water change, then again shortly afterwards (if it was the same one); in the past, they've been inquisitive but have never bitten, let alone with force. The greens' health situation was like this pre-move from QT to established tank but has never really improved. [In contrast, in the QT, all 4 "newer" (but of the same batch) of neon green rasboras are in optimum health, with tails all intact; they seem to get on very well, with no one fish being in command or chasing the others, and generally seem very content in their QT.] Any further thoughts for likely or potential causes? The only "anomaly" I've noticed is that KH and GH seem to have been lower than usual (KH=1, GH=3), although PH remains the same at 7.5 (water company seem to artificially increase it).

I have 3 types of treatment - medication which would require moving the fish to a hospital tank and which I haven't been using (which is currently in use as a QT, though), Melafix (aka tea-tree oil which I have been using in 3-day rather than 7-day doses as I've been a bit wary due to others having problems with it) - this seems to result in temporary improvement of the various health problems above but these recur after treatment is ceased) and Easylife Voogle (which, on the few occasions I've ever used it, seems to result in the hole-like ulcer developing an almost immediate saprolegnia-type fungus before falling off and healing starting but no other visible improvement for any of the other health problems). I also have catappa / Indian almond leaves in the tank.

Thoughts on potential explanations or solutions welcome (aside from the temptation to allow the new neon greens to inhabit the QT as a permanent home given that they're doing so well in there!). Thanks.  :)


Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 15, 2018, 08:06:07 PM
As an update to this:
*I've moved some wood around so that the dominant neon green rasbora (large female x-ray tetra reincarnated) no longer has possession of such a large expanse of the tank
*everything else is much the same
*the x-ray tetra with the cloudy eye developed a bubble/pop-eye on top of the pop-eye, which led me to do another short/3-day course of Melafix (just complete), given that I have no QT available for treatment; from others' experiences of Melafix, and from having been dosing off-and-on for a while now, I feel a little uneasy about doing a 7-day course albeit that may nip the various problems in the bud.

Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Sue on November 15, 2018, 08:24:35 PM
Melafix is not a terribly good medication. It's more like putting dettol on a cut - good to stop it getting infected but useless if the cut is already infected. I would try something a bit stronger (eHSa 2000 or Myxazin)
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 15, 2018, 09:16:40 PM
Thanks, @Sue, but the crux of the problem is that I'd need to dose the entire tank as I have no available QT at present, and these meds would affect / kill off the filter bacteria to the entire tank too (and possibly even make the tank uninhabitable for the nerite snails even if they were removed temporarily and put in the QT during treatment).

Perhaps a third tank and equipment is a necessity but where on earth it's going to go, I have no idea!  ???
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Sue on November 15, 2018, 09:35:57 PM
Ah, I'd forgotten about the snails.

I know that eSHa 2000 does not kill cherry shrimps because I had to treat my betta for finrot a couple of weeks ago. And it doesn't kill pest snails (they'd survive a nuclear holocaust  ::) ) or Malaysian trumpet snails, but nerites are a whole different kettle of fish. Or snails.

I don't know what to suggest. Anything that won't kill nerites probably won't kill any bugs either  :-\


As a side issue, eSHa 2000 and Myxazin don't harm the filter bacteria. It's antibiotics that do, and we can't get them in the UK without a prescription.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Rustle on November 16, 2018, 05:53:35 AM
I am not sure if it helps in anyway but i have used esha 2000 at three quarters of a dose with assassin snails and they were fine,they wasn't very keen and climbed up the glass of the tank' but all were healthy after the treatment.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on November 16, 2018, 06:12:48 AM
How about putting your nerites in a bucket with an air stone and some filter media while you medicate the tank? Would probably require water changes to be on the safe side, but better than nothing in an emergency.
Also, will be obvious to Mr FCMF that it is only a temporary arrangement, rather than a new tank.  ;)
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Sue on November 16, 2018, 09:28:29 AM
I didn't like to suggest that, knowing Mr fcmf and another tank (he's like Mr Sue). I have used the nerites in a bucket option as well. Put something over the top to stop them climbing out and if you don't have a spare heater, put the bucket in the warmest place you have. You will have to do daily water changes.
Once treatment in the tank has finished, do a big water change then water changes every day. Run a couple of batches of carbon in the filter. The water changes will remove most of the medication, and the carbon will get rid of most of the rest. Finally, run some Polyfilter http://www.arcadia-aquatic.com/product/poly-filter/ in the filter for a few days. This should remove the last of the med. Yes, it is very expensive but I always have some in the cupboard.

Then put the snails back.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 16, 2018, 08:19:41 PM
Thanks, all - very helpful indeed.  :cheers:

As a side issue, eSHa 2000 and Myxazin don't harm the filter bacteria. It's antibiotics that do, and we can't get them in the UK without a prescription.
That's great news - I was convinced they did, so that's welcome news.

I didn't like to suggest that, knowing Mr fcmf and another tank (he's like Mr Sue). I have used the nerites in a bucket option as well. Put something over the top to stop them climbing out and if you don't have a spare heater, put the bucket in the warmest place you have. You will have to do daily water changes.
Once treatment in the tank has finished, do a big water change then water changes every day. Run a couple of batches of carbon in the filter. The water changes will remove most of the medication, and the carbon will get rid of most of the rest. Finally, run some Polyfilter http://www.arcadia-aquatic.com/product/poly-filter/ in the filter for a few days. This should remove the last of the med. Yes, it is very expensive but I always have some in the cupboard.
Then put the snails back.
Mr FCMF recoiled in horror at what would be involved, blurting out "you'd be better setting up a new tank purely for the snails...", then immediately retracted that comment when he saw my face transform in delight. Argh - wish I'd managed to contain myself better! He then spotted me later on with a tape measure and I've been given a stern warning not to even think about this which of course I can't help doing...


Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on November 16, 2018, 08:38:04 PM
 :rotfl:
Once a tape measure is involved it's already too late.  ;D
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 19, 2018, 03:07:03 PM
A second tank is unfortunately a definite no-no. I'm also not prepared to put my snails at any risk at all - I hadn't appreciated just how fond I am of them, in particular the first one I got and with whom there's a definite rapport.

The new fish have now completed 3 weeks of quarantine and I had intended for at least the full 4 weeks. Therefore, my options are:
* move them into the main tank a week early, but run the risk of doing so causing further problems in the main tank, but move out those fish with problems for medication in the QT
* wait a week and move them into the main tank as originally planned and hope that the fish in the main tank don't deteriorate during that intervening week - the situation has neither worsened nor improved, albeit the skinny harlie hasn't eaten anything for possibly a couple of months now and is getting increasingly concave to the extent that his tail is almost larger and more robust than his body (not sure he'd actually survive medication - if anything, he'd be better in a tank on his own and encouraged to eat in there but without medication)
Dilemmas, dilemmas...
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Matt on November 19, 2018, 06:04:55 PM
Personally if the fish in quaranteen look ok I would move them. There's no doubt you might regret it if something happened in the main tank, but I suspect the odds are in your favour... I rarely quaranteen fish which I appreciate is far from best practice but I trust where I get them from as I think you do also...
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 21, 2018, 09:59:45 AM
Thanks, Matt. I had an inkling Skinny Harley was on his last legs fins, having not eaten for 2 months maybe and looking more gaunt daily, and certainly wouldn't have survived medication if transferred to the quarantine/hospital tank along with the other fish requiring medication, and thus I delayed the quarantine > main tank transfer. True enough, this morning he was on the bottom, listing over / bent and spiralling. I had no option but to perform euthanasia.  :'(

I'll set about the tank transfer for the other fish later on today.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: TopCookie on November 21, 2018, 01:22:19 PM
He then spotted me later on with a tape measure and I've been given a stern warning not to even think about this which of course I can't help doing...

:rotfl:
Once a tape measure is involved it's already too late.  ;D


(https://imagez.to/i/PpckTX3q.gif)
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 21, 2018, 01:38:30 PM
A plan is up my sleeve for this (unbeknown to Mr FCMF), but it will require a massive clear-out operation on my part which isn't do-able overnight...
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on November 21, 2018, 02:49:12 PM
So sorry to hear that you had to resort to euthanasia today for Skinny Harley @fcmf   :'(
It's never a decision that any of us want to make, though sometimes it is for the best not to prolong these situations.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 21, 2018, 07:12:04 PM
Thanks, @Littlefish.

After faffing around with filter sponge to attempt to seal any potential gaps at the side of the filter in prep for the new neon greens given their expertise at getting stuck behind filters, I've now swapped some fish around - the 4 new neon greens are now in the main tank and have been accepted by their tankmates from the outset and been settling in well from within a few minutes of their move, while the double-pop-eyed x-ray tetra and the almost-no-tail neon green are in the quarantine/hospital tank with eSHa 2000. The raggedy-tailed neon green seems to have mended, so this just leaves a neon green with a white spot on its lip that I would like to medicate but he's become wise as to what I'm doing and escaped capture and so I've abandoned that for today.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 22, 2018, 04:04:19 PM
Day 2 of medication.

Neon green is very active (and looks like he wants to spread his fins and be back in a bigger tank); I don't honestly have much hope that his tail will grow back but, with it being slightly back on the edges, definitely worth giving this treatment a go.

X-ray tetra is very subdued and not moving much, unlike how he was in the main tank - glad the eSHa 2000 is a short-duration treatment. He does eat but only the food that can be seen on his good-eye side, as I think he's completely blind on the bad-eye side. That eye still looks very swollen - it is sitting out from the socket with the double pop eye extending quite disconcertingly possibly 5mm from the socket.

I haven't moved the neon green with the white spot on its lip as it's less noticeable today - and he's not harassing his tankmates today... in fact, it's very harmonious in the main tank (touchwood!).
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on November 22, 2018, 04:07:15 PM
Fingers crossed things continue to progress in a positive manner with all your fish.  :)
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 22, 2018, 06:06:00 PM
Thanks, @Littlefish.

I have been wondering what the cause was behind Skinny Harley's lack of appetite. In the past couple of months, I've begun to notice some changes in the harlies' appearance lately - at one time, the 4 bigger ones (incl Skinny Harley) all looked identical but now it's very easy to tell the difference even among the remaining 3 bigger ones - and which I was putting down simply to the ageing process.  On potentially overthinking this today, I have also noticed that some of the harlies - big and small - have a sort of delineation between their bodies and their spine which I think is new, and most easily described like the bit around the edge of a Cornish pasty. Grateful for others' thoughts - is this a normal variation, part of the ageing process or any cause for concern? Video here (remove the # to view, and with apologies in TF Daily News for other aspects of the tank): https://#youtu.be/fWevvPEwIpY

Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Matt on November 22, 2018, 09:13:40 PM
I have one very old harlie left @fcmf so I'm happy to do a compare and contrast for you but could you give me a bit more on what I need to look for? Afraid I'm not following your description at the moment...

Sounds like you are doing everything you can!...
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 22, 2018, 09:24:39 PM
Thanks, @Matt.

In order to better explain it, what I'm noticing is that some of the harlies' spines seem to be more defined/demarcated vs their bodies, looking rather like the bit like the sealed part on this albeit not puckered http://www.cornishpastyassociation.co.uk/about-the-pasty/make-your-own-genuine-cornish-pasty/ with the body being the filled part underneath. [I haven't eaten a Cornish pasty for 35 years but somehow what I saw reminded me of it.] It might just be as simple as those harlies are getting plumper than the others and so their spine has a comparative demarcation line, whereas the slimmer harlies don't have a demarcation line.

I've noticed a few other odd things going on but not quite enough to cause concern yet, such as what I thought was a spine looking slightly bent/malformed when viewed from above, and possibly on the same fish a bit more of a nose-up/tail-down swimming action and a slight twitch for a split second, but just wondered about this aspect in particular while I continue to monitor that all's ok. If anyone notices anything untoward in the fish from the short-clip video, please do comment; thanks.



Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Matt on November 22, 2018, 09:34:19 PM
I'll have a look tomorrow evening for you when the lights are back on  :)... Remind me nearer the time if your getting concerned... it's a Friday night... I will probably forget!!
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on November 22, 2018, 10:01:30 PM
I see what you mean by "cornish pasty" @fcmf
At the begining of the clip, the fish that is closer to the left hand side of the tank, swims towards the left, then turns and swims back and forth a few times...as he turns the light shining above makes it look like a dark line just below the dorsal fin, then a lighter area as his body gets wider.
I don't have any harlies, and I don't think I've got any fish that are approaching the same age for comparison either.
The fish seem quite perky and active though.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Sue on November 23, 2018, 08:52:45 AM
I don't have harlies, but I do have the closely related Espei's rasboras. Mine are only a couple of years old, and I have not seen anything like the appearance of your harlies. I don't know what it could be  ???
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 23, 2018, 11:57:01 AM
I had been looking at causes of lack of appetite which might have accounted for Skinny Harley's demise and becoming increasingly concave. Fish TB is apparently a common cause of this - I sincerely hope it's not this. However, some of the other fishes' symptoms are consistent with that  eg: the harley with the wound which developed into a hole, similar to the one on the female x-ray tetra that died earlier this year after battling it for 18 months, albeit that wound is now healing; this strange curvature-type development on the harlies; the x-ray tetra's pop-eye; the increasingly bloated female x-ray tetra which died in the summer; the MDK with the missing tail portions; the MDK with the raggedy tail albeit that seems to be mending. [NB both MDKs' symptoms were present in the QT - hmmm, and the harlies' changes only developed after the MDKs entered the main tank... I wonder :-\] I'm not sure it accounts for the recent single white spot on the lip of one of the MDKs, though. 2 of the 4 MDKs which had an very early demise died of natural causes while 2 died of fatal accidents. The 4 new MDKs so far have had no problems, either in the QT or on being moved to the main tank a couple of days ago, although I'm now wondering about whether I was wise to move them.

The links between the 2 female tetras' demise earlier this year and the current problems may be too tenuous for fish TB to have accounted for them, and I completely appreciate that theirs and even the harlies' problems may simply be accounted for by getting older (my initial assumption) but I thought it worth getting others' views. Just to reiterate that tank water quality readings are consistently 0 ammonia and nitrite, nitrates around 20/25.

Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 23, 2018, 09:10:38 PM
I've had a good examination of the harlies today and think that, actually, 4 are just getting a bit plumper as they age and this is what causes the "Cornish pasty" look, while 2 are remaining as they were. I recall seeing harlies in a public aquarium many years ago and thinking how differently they looked from ones in shops - perhaps they have a habit of changing considerably when they're older.  On the basis of that, I think I've possibly been putting 2+2 together and making 5, then putting 5+5 together and making 12.  I'll continue to monitor the situation, of course.

Meanwhile, I notice that the photo of a MDK on Fishbase also has a bit of a missing tail, so I'm inclined to return the one in the hospital tank to the main tank tomorrow as the 3-day course of treatment completes today. As for the x-ray tetra, his eye remains the same, so I'm not entirely sure whether to extend the treatment course or not.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on November 23, 2018, 09:52:48 PM
"Middle-age spread" certainly less worrying than fish TB.
We all tend to be very concerned about the health of our fish, so thinking about the worst outcomes is quite normal.  :)
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 24, 2018, 01:38:05 PM
@Matt, does your elderly harlequin have what I've described?

Outcomes are never quite as anticipated.  I was certain that, following a period over the course of the morning of gradually diluting the hospital tank from its eSHa 2000 including putting carbon in the filter, the neon green rasbora was ready to move and I'd make a decision on the x-ray tetra.  Having put them both back in the main tank an hour ago or so, however, the outcome is quite the opposite from what I expected:
* the x-ray tetra, who looked very subdued in the hospital tank and I wasn't sure would survive, coloured up instantaneously and has been having a great time shoaling among everyone else in the newly formatted tank (ie minus the second filter)
* the neon green rasbora with missing tail portions, who was lively and active in the hospital tank, is quivering in nose-up, tail-down fashion and keeps getting sucked towards the filter inlets, interspersed with trying to lie down on a silk plant leaf - it wouldn't surprise me if another fatality is imminent... The only explanation I have for this is that the move between the jug and the main tank via a net with the x-ray tetra (probably all of 3 seconds in it) has somehow injured or traumatised him.  :'(

[Edited to add: NGR's fins (apart from the partial caudal fin) are each working fine, so unlikely physical damage.]
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Matt on November 24, 2018, 01:55:49 PM
Do you mean on top/just behind their head?

The neon green rasbora may well be a little shook up at the moment... I'd check again in another couple of hours :)
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 24, 2018, 02:14:43 PM
Do you mean on top/just behind their head?
Yes, basically the bit running along at the top of the body where the spine is - is there a Cornish pasty similarity or nothing at all?
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Matt on November 24, 2018, 02:54:51 PM
Yes and this is absolutely and completely normal. As harlies age they get this bump :) mine is very pronounced  :cheers:

Rubbish photo below!
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 24, 2018, 03:49:30 PM
Yours has the hunchback/bump but doesn't seem to have the 'sealed' bit at the spine like in the case of a Cornish pasty. However, this does reassure me - thanks, Matt.
 :cheers:

Edited to add: video of x-ray tetra with pop-eye (RHS) - it's the x-ray in the centre of the video [the 'traumatised' NGR appears in the video at the start in the upper right-hand corner] https:#//youtu.be/RoefimowUKU [remove # to view]
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 24, 2018, 07:31:18 PM
I'm worn out...

The 'traumatised' NGR has been suffering from what appears to be a catastrophic swimbladder malfunction as a consequence of being moved from the hospital tank to the main tank and thus entirely my fault :vcross: (despite being done very easily and efficiently). He was lying upside down, entangled in the hornwort, possibly for some relief/rest between his nose-up, tail-down, mouth-to-the-surface interspersed with lying flat on his side and then belly-up as though gone before sudden very rapid breathing took place. Once I put the jug into the tank and rescued him, he got worse, lying completely on his side and with continued very rapid breathing.

Reluctantly, I got out the euthanasia containers. Once in the container used for The Deed, and while shaking the other container to ensure the clove oil was mixing well with the tank water, he suddenly positioned himself upright - whether there were still traces of clove oil (with vodka for the end-stage process) in it from a few days ago which have given him a temporary final reprieve, I don't know, but he's now back in the hospital tank, on the bottom, covered by a catappa leaf. I expect nature will take its course within a very short period of time, but I've decided it's best to give him a chance.
Edited to add: 5 minutes later, and he's sitting on the bottom of the hospital tank, in the correct position, wedged between an ornament and the tank wall.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on November 24, 2018, 07:48:51 PM
No wonder you're worn out.
I hope the little fella is still in the correct position.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 24, 2018, 09:07:09 PM
RIP, Tail-less MDK/NGR  :'(  :'(  :'( .  I feel entirely responsible for this but don't know what I would have done differently in the transfer-back-to-main-tank process - both fish were moved together, yet one thrives on return and one goes into a catastrophic demise...  :vcross: :vcross: :vcross:

Please may I have a period of tranquillity / no fatalities or casualties in the tank..?
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on November 25, 2018, 08:31:05 AM
Sorry to hear about your loss @fcmf
Try not to beat yourself up over this, it may have just been his time to go.  :'(
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Matt on November 25, 2018, 09:33:47 AM
I think you did everything you could @fcmf
Fingers crossed for more peaceful times...
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 26, 2018, 05:59:00 PM
Thanks, both.

Sadly, I know that the fish wouldn't have died that quickly if it had been of natural causes or even the stress of treatment, given how well he had been throughout the 3 days of treatment - if indeed it was finrot, I reckon it would have taken another few days at the very least and possibly weeks or months to succumb to that. What I think must have happened is that in the <3-second switchover via the net, even although the jug was right up directly over the tank and thus minimising the switchover time, the fish took a massive gulp of air which created a catastrophic swimbladder malfunction.

My learning from this sad experience, and perhaps helpful for others, is that a tiny amount of eSHa2000-diluted water from the jug ending up in the main tank might have been better than 1-3 seconds of no water and thus the fish potentially gulping, with this fatal outcome.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 27, 2018, 08:33:15 PM
Not much of a reprieve.

One harlequin - the one which has been bobbing back and forth lately as its buoyancy has gone rather awry, with its tail lower than its body rather than the fish being completely horizontal - had an inflamed base of its right pectoral fin this morning. By mid-afternoon, I noticed the base of the pelvic fins were also inflamed. By early evening, the mouth was also affected.  See video, with apologies for debris floating past as the tank was still settling from the water change: https:#//youtu.be/P_FKm2jCVzI [remove the # to view].

I decided to do a larger-than-usual water change on the tank in an effort to mitigate this, during which I viewed all the fish from above. Currently, I have 3 fish which concern me:
* the fish in the video above
* the x-ray tetra with the pop-eye which didn't respond to treatment but is doing fine in every other way
* a harley with a very curved spine when viewed from above albeit it looks absolutely fine when viewed from the front of the tank - its spine is in a slight S shape when viewed from above, with one side of the body twisted one way and the other side twisted the other way, and this is the fish which had the injury on its side and which disappeared lately but a fleck had re-appeared in the past day or so.

I don't plan to treat the last two in the list above but am contemplating whether to treat the harley with eSHa 2000 or whether to hope the water change might be sufficient. Views welcome; thanks.

I know the harlies and x-rays are getting older but I do wonder if there's something else going on in my tank which can't be measured by standard, home-based testing kits...  ???
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 27, 2018, 09:21:01 PM
Update:

As lights out were due, I decided to remove him to medicate. He swam quite readily into the jug.

I realised that, on balance, with the rate of inflammation (or whatever it is), I couldn't afford to delay treatment while trying to make up my mind. He seems happy enough in the hospital tank with a half dose of medication as I prefer not to do the double dose required for my soft water all at once.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Matt on November 27, 2018, 09:28:17 PM
Everything crossed here @fcmf  :D
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 29, 2018, 09:15:52 PM
Thanks, Matt.

Third dose administered. Don't think there's any change at all. Views on whether to continue with treatment (I'm assuming it's a form of finrot?) or not would be welcome; thanks.

[Incidentally, on googling the symptoms, I discovered my own post from a couple of years ago - one of the harlies had a similar problem but it must have been short-lived albeit probably not as evident as this.]
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 30, 2018, 12:54:45 PM
Update: Harley looks much improved today - pelvic fins and one of the pectoral fins completely cleared up, mouth considerably better than yesterday and able to be opened and closed properly today, leaving just the original and most inflamed pectoral fin looking still inflamed but better than over the past few days. Therefore, I think I may do a half-dose of the ordinary Day 2 and Day 3 dosage (essentially, one drop) into the QT this evening and spend tomorrow afternoon/evening gradually diluting the medication before putting him back in the main tank.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on November 30, 2018, 03:36:07 PM
Hmmm - haven't done the phosphate test for a while.  Results are 5 from both the tank and the tapwater.   ???   ???   ??? 

While quite a lot of food does drop to the bottom of the tank, I've tried to compensate for that and the snail poo by the two mini-water changes per week plus the larger water change and very thorough sand siphoning in which all decor and plants are removed, so fish food shouldn't be a contributor.

Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Helen on December 01, 2018, 01:05:40 AM
If it is the same high reading from both tap and tank water, with phosphate, my first question is did you use liquid soap to wash your test tubes? It takes a lot of rinsing to remove the phosphate residue from detergents. And it doesn't take much residue to interfere with a test.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on December 01, 2018, 09:08:05 AM
If it is the same high reading from both tap and tank water, with phosphate, my first question is did you use liquid soap to wash your test tubes? It takes a lot of rinsing to remove the phosphate residue from detergents. And it doesn't take much residue to interfere with a test.
Oh good grief - absolutely not! Simply lots of rinsing, then let them air dry.
I wonder if something is added to the water which creates high phosphates...  ???  [Edited to add: according to the governmental website, phosphate dosing takes place at the water treatment works here to prevent the dissolution of lead from pipework, and another governmental agency refers to soft water areas needing this whereas hard water areas' limescale does the job. That may account for it.]
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Helen on December 01, 2018, 11:06:33 AM
That's interesting. I'm not sure the last time I tested my tap water for phosphate. I have soft water, with low nitrates. So if it has relatively high phosphate that would explain why I constantly struggle to get the nitrate:phosphate ratio correct.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on December 01, 2018, 11:32:31 AM
Update: Harley looks much improved today - pelvic fins and one of the pectoral fins completely cleared up, mouth considerably better than yesterday and able to be opened and closed properly today, leaving just the original and most inflamed pectoral fin looking still inflamed but better than over the past few days. Therefore, I think I may do a half-dose of the ordinary Day 2 and Day 3 dosage (essentially, one drop) into the QT this evening and spend tomorrow afternoon/evening gradually diluting the medication before putting him back in the main tank.
Some good news - the harley seems to have responded to the treatment, with the pectoral fin 90% improved. I've been gradually diluting the QT and am going to transfer him back to the main tank later today, taking into account my learning from last week as per reply #38 in this thread.

Update: he has now been successfully transferred. On entry to the maintank, he started spiralling, then went upside down for several moments - felt as though my own heart had stopped and that I'd have to move him out. However, I think he was struggling to re-adjust to the main tank's filter flow, and has been fine since... phew.Video https:#//youtu.be/8dgVVX_BEAs [remove # to watch] shows his improvement but note the comment about his "paralysed" tail. This is only something that I've noticed in the past couple of months but not something which I can do much about, unfortunately. [Tank has a lot of debris floating as I did another 50% water and sand-siphoning change, just to be certain that any eSHa 2000 in the transfer process was diluted further.]
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on December 23, 2018, 03:30:56 PM
As a further update https://#youtu.be/Hhx2oPu-Tx8 [remove # to watch], this time on the x-ray tetra with the problematic eye, the cloudy eye evolved over time into a cataract-like problem, then into popeye. The situation is deteriorating in the sense that the popeye is protruding increasingly further, with the eye considerably displaced when looking directly at both eyes together - it's as though there is a ball-bearing which can be seen when viewing the fish face-on. However, the fish is still as inquisitive and colourful as ever and with as hearty an appetite as always.

I've already tried a course of eSHa 2000 but he didn't respond well to being in the hospital tank so, especially as I'd be unsure what else to medicate with, I plan for him to see out his days in the familiar and happy environment of the main tank as it doesn't seem to be bothering him at all. With the current trajectory, though, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if either the eye completely detaches itself from the socket (if that is even possible but it might relieve what I can only imagine is considerable pressure behind the eye) or else the fish is found dead one day within the next few weeks (if the pressure extends internally).
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Matt on December 24, 2018, 07:58:25 AM
Fish can live with Popeye for many years. I had a sparkling gourami with this same issue who didn't seem hugely affected by it just like your fish. I'm not sure there is a particularly effective treatment to be honest...
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on January 04, 2019, 02:26:13 PM
As an update (although I'll probably jinx the situation by writing this!), the various afflicted fish seem to be doing fine. The afflicted harley seems to be much more horizontal in the tank now, without his tail drooping so much, so whatever was going on there seems to be clearing / have cleared. The pop-eyed tetra remains unaffected by his eye. I'm now reaching the stage where I'm opening the tank to do the morning feed without trepidation on account of expecting a body to be floating in the hornwort. Of course, it's usually just as I reach this stage of relative relaxation about the situation that a fatality occurs... fingers crossed that this won't be the case!


Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on April 04, 2019, 03:36:40 PM
POSTS #52 to #60 WERE IN 'THINK FISH KEEPERS DAILY NEWS' THREAD BUT WOULD BE BETTER LOCATED IN THIS THREAD. MOVED 9/4/19 BY FCMF  C:-)


Thanks for the kind words the other day, @Sue, @Littlefish and @Matt. Poor Wee Harley keeps hovering in different locations in the tank, eyes constantly on the move and clearly on the lookout for her buddy Little Harley - they were always side-by-side. However, she has linked up with the other 3 now.

Hospital tank is in action again - this time nursing the neon green rasbora with the slightly hump-backed spine. He started bending oddly and tipping from side-to-side, especially if in the current flow, and one eye looked slightly enlarged, so I'm treating him with eSHa 2000. I'm not entirely sure that this is the correct course of action, as he's also displaying slightly strange behaviours such as swimming in circles and chasing his own tail, seizing up in a C position, and the occasional flailing from one end of the tank to the other as though having some sort of neurological episode, albeit at least some of this seems to be connected to being spooked easily such as through any movement in the room or a light being switched on. He's one of the first of the two batches of neon greens, and they haven't fared as well as the second batch which look much healthier.

Oughtn't to admit this but, with him and one of the harlequins unlikely to see out the next few months, my mind is already wandering as to what species next - the choice may end up being made on what looks constitutionally the strongest!
Title: Re: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Matt on April 04, 2019, 06:38:50 PM
I always get the same mixed feelings at the passing of the last of a species. Good must come with the bad... but then the guilt of not feeling bad... then the excitement of new fish...   :-\
Title: Re: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on April 04, 2019, 09:50:22 PM
I always get the same mixed feelings at the passing of the last of a species. Good must come with the bad... but then the guilt of not feeling bad... then the excitement of new fish...   :-\
Your words have been playing on my mind this evening.  My shoals are actually all ~half sizes now rather than down to the last one or two.  Hmmm - I'd been thinking of keeping my stocking around the 80% mark and possibly introducing a new shoal if the two I think aren't going to last much longer do indeed pass away.  I thought I probably wouldn't replenish the shoals of the 4 / 4.5 yr-old x-rays and harlies as I'd rather remember the individuals constituting the original shoals as they are rather than "replace" them, and the young neon green rasboras haven't fared too well so I'm not keen on replenishing their shoal. Now, though, I'm wondering if a fourth species in a 54L tank might actually be a bad idea and I'd be better to wait...  :-\
Title: Re: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on April 05, 2019, 03:53:16 PM
Hospital tank is in action again - this time nursing the neon green rasbora with the slightly hump-backed spine. He started bending oddly and tipping from side-to-side, especially if in the current flow, and one eye looked slightly enlarged, so I'm treating him with eSHa 2000. I'm not entirely sure that this is the correct course of action, as he's also displaying slightly strange behaviours such as swimming in circles and chasing his own tail, seizing up in a C position, and the occasional flailing from one end of the tank to the other as though having some sort of neurological episode, albeit at least some of this seems to be connected to being spooked easily such as through any movement in the room or a light being switched on. He's one of the first of the two batches of neon greens, and they haven't fared as well as the second batch which look much healthier.

Video of aforementioned fish, an hour following third/final dosage of eSHa 2000 - https:/#/youtu.be/onfMmgtdCQ4 [remove # to watch]. Behaviour is odd, and was what was occurring in main tank prior to being moved to hospital tank. I don't think it's the same as what happened to Little Harley - his demise was very sudden - but I wouldn't rule it out altogether. He is definitely very easily spooked in the hospital tank and I'm purposefully staying away from that room to give him peace, and I'm not sure how much of this strange behaviour is exacerbated by seeing his own reflection on the bottom. It's the same filter as the fish had when in QT so, even if the flow is too strong (and I'll have another go at putting filter wool in the outflow nozzle), it oughtn't to account for this strange turning/circling. Neurological symptoms? A parasitic infection (although I'm not seeing anything)? Thoughts including course of action welcome; thanks!
Update: Have managed to reduce the filter flow with some filter sponge so that it's only a trickle and have covered the tank floor in sand. Behaviour of going round in circles is slightly calmer but still continues, including the losing-balance type of behaviour.
Further update: He seems to have calmed down a bit more. If he's still alive, I think I'll make a decision early tomorrow afternoon whether to extend the treatment course or start diluting the eSHa 2000 in prep for moving him back to the main tank later tomorrow or the following day.
Final update (first thing the following morning): Well-and-truly dead, looking as though he may have died late last night. :'( He had looked a lot calmer throughout the eve, and my hopes were rising that he would pull through but it seems to be yet another case of animals/humans perking up from serious illness before a sudden fatal demise. After a bit of googling, I did wonder if it might be whirling disease...
Title: Re: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on April 06, 2019, 12:50:28 PM
@fcmf  that is such sad news.  :(

As most of your gang are quite rich in years you may be going through a very unfortunate phase with your fish. Although they have lived long & happy lives, this doesn't dim the pain of the situation. My thoughts are with you are this difficult time.

I'm with you on not wanting to replace certain fish, and wanting to remember individuals. With a large shoal of identical fish it doesn't seem to have the same impact, but the loss of a fish that can be identified as an individual (due to colour patterns, or because it's something like a betta, or the only fish of that species in a tank) it seems to be that much harder. When you've bonded with fish to the point that they have names, any loss is a massive blow.  :'(
Title: Re: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on April 06, 2019, 05:27:23 PM
Aw, thanks @Littlefish, for your kind words.  Yes, I seem to be going through an unfortunate phase at present, possibly due to some old fish but also due to the first of the two batches of neon greens in particular not faring well for whatever reason (nothing to do with water quality which is consistently as it ought to be). Hmmm - perhaps I ought to consider a single-species tank in the future to avoid bonding too much with any one fish and also because possibly they may fare better in a large shoal...
Title: Re: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on April 07, 2019, 07:50:18 AM
A word of warning about bonding with a larger shoal, I have already named two individuals in my single species tiger barb tank of 27 fish.  :)
Title: Re: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Sue on April 07, 2019, 10:13:17 AM
I can usually recognise one or perhaps two individuals from a shoal but the majority all look identical to me.

There is a group of fish you could think about for the future - Boraras. These are usually wild caught which means they are less tolerant of water parameters at the edge of their normal range. You have very soft water which is perfect for these fish. Like the dwarf cories, they do best in groups of 10+ and a huge shoal could look stunning in your tank.
Chili rasboras, Boraras brigittae, are the most common, but I think a lot of shops sell the less colourful B urophthamoides as B brigittae. My favourite is the slightly larger B maculatus which is bright red.
None of the Boraras are in the fish profiles, unfortunately, but Axelrod's rasbora is in there. This fish is the same size as B maculatus and has the same requirements. In fact, this would suit your water as well but are not easy to find.
Title: Re: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on April 07, 2019, 04:37:46 PM
Thanks. Coincidentally, my LFS had a posting this weekend saying that they had the chillis, axelrods and the maculatus in stock currently...  No, I am not going to start playing around with the CC to see how many I could fit in now! The one issue I need to be very careful with is that no stock is too small to slither its way behind the filter, so the maculatus may be the best option when the time is right. [From learning with the microdevarios, I do have the corner filter attached with magnets plus thin pieces of filter sponge squeezed in where it sits out slightly due to the suction cups but, if they're any smaller than the MKDs, I may need to be even more careful!]
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on April 09, 2019, 08:07:31 PM
Connected with Think Fish Keepers Daily News thread post #1733 and subsequent posts from that thread #1742-1750 which were merged with this thread into posts #52-60, another microdevario kubotai / neon green rasbora (MDK/NGR) in hospital tank now with eSHa 2000...   

Last week, the day before moving Hump-backed NGR into it, I noticed another NGR had developed a feature - a dark spot on its flank, probably near its intestines. The following day, it had developed two smaller dark spots in the same position on the other flank. I've been monitoring the situation and thought the larger spot was worsening/deepening. Strangely, that fish was missing this morning - but then re-appeared from wherever on the 5th attempt of counting plus opening and shutting the lid.

This evening, I've just discovered that fish breathing/gasping/drinking rapidly from the surface and the dark spot is a definite ulcer, right through to the white of the internal organ - precisely what and in the same location as one of the two female tetras had recurringly for 18 months before succumbing to it and possibly similar to Bent Spine Harley's although his is less deep, further up his flank, seems to be cause of his curved spine, and he seems to be living with it better than I'd anticipated.  I have little hope here due to the fast breathing/gasping/drinking and the track record I've had with these fish (5/12 left including him and they're only 0.75 year old).

Any thoughts on whether I ought to be trying a medication for parasites instead? I've never seen anything protruding from any of the ulcers in the aforementioned fish.

[...and Mr FCMF wants me to get rid of the fishtank once the current stock have depleted as he insists "fishkeeping's too much hassle"...  >:(]

Update (following morning): Fish is lifeless on bottom of hospital tank :'( , a particular shame as he seemed to be doing well in it throughout the evening. That leaves only one fish left from that particular batch of 8, one with a forked tail and who has been fine until now but is hiding on his own at the bottom of the tank and didn't bother to have breakfast...
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: Littlefish on April 10, 2019, 08:25:23 AM
So sorry to hear that another fish has passed @fcmf   :'(

You are having such an awful time with your fish at the moment, I really don't know what to suggest.
Title: Re: Fish health in my tank
Post by: fcmf on April 12, 2019, 03:51:27 PM
Thanks, @Littlefish. The final fish in that original batch of 8 (Forktail) has been taking to playing hide'n'seek in the mornings, something the previous fish did just before dying. I check the water surface every morning for any overnight fatalities, drop in the fish food, try counting and re-counting several times, then get out a torch to scan the bottom of the tank for any bodies, at which point this particular fish suddenly appears.  Only if a week goes past without a fatality, might I settle a little...