Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Health => Topic started by: Ally2 on October 23, 2016, 05:35:58 PM
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Hi
I'm wondering if moonbeam has fin rot. While cleaning himout put him in his jug and looked at him at the window . Seems like his top fin looks torn ? And his colours near his body faded . Will try and post pictures .
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It's difficult for me to tell because I don't know what his fins normally look like when they are on show. I've had a look through some of your previous posts to find pictures, and in some of them his fins do look a little neater, but again, difficult to tell.
Hopefully one of the others will be able to help, but until then make ure that your water parameters are perfect, perhaps do a partial water change just to be on the safe side.
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It doesn't look quite right for finrot. Do you have anything in the tank he could have caught his fins on? Bettas are very prone to tearing their fins on rough or sharp objects.
Water changes are indeed the way to go - and if he has torn his fins they will help prevent an infection getting into the cut edge.
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Hi
I've done a 25 percent water change today , is that enough ? Should I do it every day ?
Everything is smooth , but he sleeps against the filter outlet , but has done that for 5 months . I'm trying to post a better photo on my phone at the moment. Could he have nipped himself ? Is it worth getting the fin rot treatment just in case ?
Ally
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Some bettas do bite their tails, but I've not come across one biting their dorsal fin as the tail is much easier to reach. If he rests against the filter, the current going in could have torn his fin. Mine likes to sleep in odd places including the bracket holding the heater and he burnt a chunk off his tail doing this - I now have a heater guard.
I would do smallish daily water changes for a week and see if that helps. And if you want to get some medication in, go for eSHa 2000.
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Ally2, If the filter intake is slotted hard plastic you could cable tie a layer of open cell foam around it to stop his finny bits getting sucked in?
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Hi
It did think it hard for him to reach his dorsal fin! I've been trying to get a photo and studying him on video. It seems like the colour has gone out of it . It looks black spotty and slightly rolled? My tank temp is 26
As for covering the filter outlet with sponge , isn't this going to block the filter working . Behind the plastic slots is the ceramic filter cartridge , and the carbon filter .
He has been doing this for 5 months and never hurt himself .
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I'd be tempted to get some eSHa 2000 and keep it in the cupboard until you are sure it is finrot. Don't be tempted to get melafix or bettafix (same thing, more diluted) as they can cause problems for anabatids by getting into the labyrinth organ. The various -fix medications have aromatic oils in them, hence the smell.
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Hi
I've ordered some esha 2000 and Indian almond leaves . I've also done another water change and put a sponge over the filter outlet . It's a rather dense sponge so I've cut some holes in it .
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Photos from another angle
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Hi
Please help I got the esha 2000. It's says too things that have worried me . One is it's says remove carbon active filter media as they can obsorb the product or realease toxins ?
Under precautions it says if using water conditioners . Do they mean the stuff that makes water safe by removing chorines etc ?
It says to keep the filter running day and night ?
But says remove the carbon filter I'm confused . It says it's safe for tropical fish but doesn't list the fish . So is it safe for all tropical fish ?
Allison
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Hi
All I have removed the zebra snails before treatment . I don't have a second heater so they are in a bucket without heat. Will they be ok in there while I treat the tank for three days ?
Allison
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eSHa as a company doesn't believe in dechlorinators so they say we shouldn't use them. On their website they say that dechlorinators remove chlorine and heavy metals but that there should be no heavy metals in drinking water and that all you need to do for chlorine is let it gas off. This does not get around the fact that snails and shrimps are affected by metals at much lower concentrations than fish, and at the levels safe for human consumption; and that lots of places use chloramines rather than chlorine which doesn't gas off. Besides which, I would have to leave rather a lot of water standing round to allow chlorine gas off and I don't think my husband would be very happy about that.
The website also says
Under normal circumstances and dosages water conditioners cause no problems. However when used excessively, because of their strong binding capacities, water conditioners (de-chlorinators, heavy metal binders, etc.) can potentially decrease the effectiveness of products such as disease treatments, algae / snail treatments, etc. or even give rise to reactions.
The red text is my highlighting.
So provided you use your dechlorinator at the dose rate on the bottle for just the amount of new water added at a water change, using dechlorinator is fine.
The reason it says to remove the carbon in a filter is that carbon adsorbs medication, removing it from the water. But you only need to remove the carbon, unless of course all that's in the filter is a carbon cartridge. And if the carbon has been in there for over a month it will be full anyway. Yes there is a slight chance that the medication will be more strongly attracted by the carbon and it could push off the the less attracted other stuff already there, but this is quite small. If a carbon cartridge is the only medium and it is not changed regularly, leave it there. if there is something else in the filter besides carbon, remove it and replace it with something else - you don't need carbon anyway.
And the filter should always be running 24/7 with or without medication.
eSHa 2000 is safe for all fish. It does not name any species that could have adverse reactions. Some medications do name certain species, for example a lot of whitespot medications say to use at half dose with scale-less fish such as loaches. Since 2000 does not name any species, it is safe with all fish.
eSHa does list the products not safe with snails and 2000 is one of those. Yes, remove the snails. They will be fine in the bucket, their metabolism will just slow down. I've done this with my nerite snails when I've had to treat the fish. Make sure the bucket is covered as nerites can and will climb out. Even an old towel will keep them in. Because there is no filter in there, change the water a couple of times a day and keep the bucket in the warmest room you have.
You will need to remove every trace of the medication before putting the snails back. It will take a lot longer than three days before you can put them back, I'm afraid.
Ways to remove the med are:
Lots and lots of water changes
Carbon in the filter, preferably several small batches rather than one big one. And throw the carbon away afterwards.
After using carbon I use a piece of Poly-Filter (http://www.arcadia-aquatic.com/poly-filter/). This is not filter wool/ filter floss but a special, very expensive, medium for removing all sorts of things including medications. Because it is expensive I use it as the final stage after the water changes and carbon have removed the vast majority.
However, just removing the med from the water does not seem to be enough. I have killed nerites by putting them back too soon. I have begun to think that meds are absorbed by algae, and when the snails eat this algae they get poisoned.
I would leave the snails in the bucket for at least a month. And if you have more than one, don't put them all back together. Just one at first.
This applies to virtually all medications not just eSHa 2000.
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Hi Sue
Thank you for your quick reply, as I wanted to dose the tank tonight .
So far I've removed snails , put in bucket with tap safe added , put the carbon filter in with the snails , with two mossy balls and an algae wafer ! They are by a radiator .
The main tank has a large sponge, ceramic beads in a cartridge,
and then a carbon filter . So removing the carbon filter still leaves the other two in the tank .
I've put in the recommended dose of six drops , then for the next two days it says three drops .
Thank you for telling me not to put snails back as I certainly wouldn't have known to wait a month or so .
When you say after the medicine dosing to do large water changes before putting the snails back what percentage ?
Also after day three of giving the medication do I need to remove most of the water to get the medication out ?
Do I need to clean throughly everything such as stones , bogwood etc ?
Or should the medication be left in the tank to work after three days ?
Allison
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When I've dosed eSHa 2000 I've done the 3-dose course then waited for 2 or 3 days before doing a water change. With a small tank I do at least 50%, which gets rid of half the medication, then put carbon in the filter which will remove some more. A couple of days later, another 50% water change and new carbon. And again a couple of days later.
You can't put the carbon media you've just taken out back in the tank as it will be at least partly full depending when you last changed it; you need new carbon. And a few batches of new carbon over the following week.
If you intend using Poly-Filter, I would do at least three new carbon batches because Poly-Filter is expensive, and the more med you can get out with water changes and carbon, the less Poly-Filter you need to use.
It would be a good idea to scrub everything that is scrubable. As I said earlier I'm beginning to think that algae absorbs some med and then the snails eat it with fatal results. But do the scrubbing as the last stage after a few water changes with new carbon.
The media left in the filter should be able to cope especially as you've removed the snails' bioload. But you will need to monitor the bucket of water with the snails for ammonia and do 100% water changes as necessary. That isn't difficult with a bucket :)
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Hi
Sue what kind of carbon do you use ? I recently changed the one that was in the tank about three weeks ago ( will check the date ) I've only got one new one spare to replace, and have no car now until next week as there are no marine shops near me .
Do you buy yours online ? The tank I have had carbon in a cartridge that slots in the back of the tank. Is there another way I can put carbon in , in s different form ?
When you say throughly clean tank do you mean remove the substrate too ?
Allison
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Photo of moonbeams finrot ?
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Sorry, I should have been clearer. After the medication course has finished, when you do the water changes, make sure you hoover the gravel well with the siphon tube and scrub one piece of decor at each water change over the next month. I forgot to mention before that decor grows biofilm in which the 'filter' bacteria live so it is not a good idea to scrub all the decor at once.
I use carbon granules which can be bought from anywhere, including Wilkinsons in their pet section. But I use it by putting the granules in a net back inside a separate, small, cheap internal filter. But with a small tank this isn't practical or the tank would end up like a whirlpool.
Does anywhere on-line sell your cartridges? I would suggest using three or four new ones, leaving each one in the tank for 3 days before replacing it. The one you took out to add the med will be full after 3 weeks so it won't remove much, if any, of the medication if you were to put it back.
Once you've finished removing medication it would be worth keeping a couple of the carbon cartridges in the cupboard, but don't put any back in the filter. It isn't needed full time. The simplest would be either -
Replace the cartridge with a layer of filter wool which you can buy on a roll and cut to size. Filter wool doesn't wash well and needs replacing frequently but it is cheap and doesn't hold many bacteria. But it is good for removing fine particles.
Or make a tiny slit in the cartridge's casing, remove the carbon and stuff the cartridge with sponge
Or leave it out completely.
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Hi Sue
Moonbeam doesn't seem to be showing any signs of improvements 😥
He's now had three days of the treatment .
Today I normally do my water change and Hoover . ( I do have a battery Hoover that doesn't remove water as it has a net , so could use that )
I last did a water change Tuesday before starting the treatment on Thursday .
Should I do a small water change today ? Or leave it ? I'm now concerned about water parameters .
As for cleaning the aquarium . I have bogwood which has plants attached and smooth pebbles , and plants so not alot to clean . Not sure what to do about cleaning bogwood !
Is this all to save the snails or does this need to be done for the fish too?
Help don't know what to do if there is no improvement in him
Allison
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All the cleaning is for the snails' benefit.
I would use the battery cleaner today to leave the medication in a bit longer.
It is difficult to know about the betta. My last one always seemed to have finrot which never really went away. It would get a bit better with treatment, then get worse afterwards. In the end I stopped treating the tank and just accepted that it was him and that I had a fish with a bit less than perfect fins. He lived for 2 years, the edges of his fins were always ragged but no more than that.
My current betta is just the opposite. I've had him since February last year and apart from when he burned his tail on the heater, which regrew, his has perfect fins.
Provided your betta's fins don't start to totally disintegrate, I would just accept that the edges of his fins are never going to be perfect.
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Hi Sue
I'm worried about the part that now seems to be on his body . Please see previous photo and I'm going to get a new one up . It looks like he's changing colour is this definitely fin rot ? Doesn't fin rot eventually kill them ?
Other betta users use almond leaves to help heal bettas . What are your thoughts on this ? I've got some almond leaves I could put in the tank .
Other than this he seems his normal self and is eating .
Allison
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Ah yes, I see what you mean.
Finrot is caused by the bacterium Flexibacter columnaris, usually just called columnaris. This can also affect the body. It usually shows as a grey horseshoe shaped region on the back. The photo shows pink rather than grey but I do realise that could just be the effect of the photo.
Would it be possible to get a photo of the betta flaring? A mirror held against the tank should get him to flare. That would make it easier to see the entire dorsal fin.
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Hi
I've added an almond leave to the tank , as there has been no improvement in his fins .
Took a photo today to see what you think . He is eating normally and his normal active self . Left his lights off for half the day . Don't know what else to try. Am I being impatient ? I read people had said the treatment had a result in 3 days 🤔
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The edges of his fins could be finrot or physical damage. Is everything in his tank nice and smooth? Is there any possibility he could burn a fin on the heater?
It doesn't look like classical finrot. With that, there are ragged chunks missing from the fins, and possibly even holes in the fin. The ragged edges could be white, black or red.
The skin where the fin joins the body looks pinky red. But that could just be his colouring. Blue bettas often have red as the underlying colour.
Columnaris on the body looks greyish white and powdery. You can see the fish in the flesh, is there any indication of grey-white powderiness?
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Hi
It's definately a pinky red colour exactly . Not grey or white. The heater is in a separate compartment where the fish cant get to it . Everything smooth pebbles , bogwood real plants . He does squeeze himself into some tiny spaces so I wonder if he's bent it ?
Could the snails have done it ?
If it doesn't respond to the fin rot treatment does this mean it's not fin rot . I've put an almond leave in to see if that helps .
I've given the snails algae wafers but there not eating them . There's no algae in the bucket so what can they eat ?
Ally
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Don't worry about the snails, they will eat the algae wafers when they find them.
Sue is the best person to cintinue to give you advice on the fin issues.
I doubt if the snails have caused the problem. I'm fairly certain that Sue has nerite snails with her betta, I have pest snails and assasin snails with mine, and others have snails with their bettas. I also doubt that a fish would stay still long enough for a smail to get on board for a nibble.
Best of luck with Moonbeam, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for him.
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I forgot to mention last time that indian almond leaves are fine with bettas.
The snails shouldn't have caused the problem, I have one small one with my betta and a few in my big tank. Until I closed down the 50 litre I had them in there with shrimps. I've never had a problem in any of these tanks. My betta does get upset with his snail when it crawls up the glass - he flares at it till it crawls onto something else.
I would just try the one course of medication for now and see what happens. If the fin starts to look really horrible, you can always add more. But if it stays the same I would just accept that he looks like that. It might even get better.
I find that my snails won't touch algae wafers either. You could try lettuce or a slice of courgette or cucumber, but with all these blanch them in a bit of water for 30 seconds in the microwave first, and take them out of the bucket before they start to foul the water.
If you have a sunny windowsill at this time of year you could try growing some algae. All you need is a glass container with some dechlorinated water, a few stones, a few drops of ammonia if you have some and a few drops of plant fertiliser - garden stuff will do if you don't have any aquarium plant fertiliser. Just leave the container in the sunniest place you have a keep your fingers crossed for sun.
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Hi
I don't think moonbeam is improving . I've dosed 3 drops today as it says you can continue after the stated 3 days .
My only concern is that if it kills snails then why are all the pesky ones that came in on plants still alive !
I bought the esha from the internet and am now questioning its effectiveness ?
I'm going to do a big clean out tommorow and do a 1/2 water change . I'm not going to clean the tank throughly yet as I may continue treating the tank fir a few more days .
I've ordered carbon. , wool etc .
Allison
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There is a difference between those snails we don't want and those we do. The ones we don't want are indestructible, while those we do want are delicate.
The pest snails in my 180 litre survived double sized doses of whitespot medication and dosing with ammonia this summer while the tank was fishless due to a very aggressive form of whitespot. I have heard it said that two things would survive a nuclear holocaust, cockroaches and malaysian trumpet snails.
The problem we have in the UK is that the really effective treatment for finrot is antibiotics which we can't get without a vet's prescription. All the meds we can get are only second best.
It is fine to try another course of eSHa 2000. Maybe change to Waterlife's Myxazin if there's still no improvement, but do a big water change and run carbon between the two medications.
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Hi Sue
Do you think I should do the esha 2000 for another three days ?
I will look into getting the other stuff . I'm still without a car so everything is coming online at the moment. I'm going to collect the carbon and wool tommorow from wilko .
I will ask you at a later date what I do. With the wool instead of the carbon for future .
Ally
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I would do another three day course which will give you time to get the carbon and Myxazin.
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Is there any point in trying another treatment ? I've read they are dangerous to mix in same tank ?
Is there something else it could be ?
Does the one you suggest great fin rott ?
Allison
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Both eSHa 2000 and Waterlife Myxazin treat finrot, though neither do it as effectively as antibiotics which need a prescription.
They should not be used together. After finishing the first medication you would need to do a big water change and run carbon in the filter for at least 24 hours to remove the first before starting the second.
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Hi
Sue
It's getting worse along his top fin now spreading along to his other fin . How do I get antibiotics for a fish ?
My only other thought what could have caused this is I changed the water conditioner I used from an api one to a tetra one . I got my car back today so I'm going to get the api one tommorow.
Can I get myxazin only online or would get it at pets at home ?
Moonbeam seems otherwise fine 😊Even built a lovely bubble nest under his anubias leave !
Ally
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How do I get antibiotics for a fish ?
Can I get myxazin only online or would get it at pets at home ?
You might find this http://www.fishvetsociety.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102:list-of-vets-willing-to-treat-pet-fish&catid=40:ornamentals&Itemid=79 helpful.
Waterlife Myxazin is available from some independent fish/aquatic shops. From recollection, I don't think PAH sell it - I think they tend to stock the Interpet range.
Are you certain that he's ill / this is finrot, and that it's not just a natural change of colouring which happens to be spreading? I'm afraid I can't tell from the photos, but you'll be the best judge of that. The fact that he's actually behaving normally does make me wonder... If he's behaving and eating well, I'd maybe be inclined to wait and see how things are for a week or two, at least having been reassured that you've tried some medication...
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Hi
The only thing I can think of tha I've done differently is change the brand of water conditioner . So I bought the original one I've been using since June. There is some improvement in the pinky colour which on the body is returning to blue. I've done two lots of esha treatment now. So will use the original water conditioner tommorow when I do the big water clean .
He's still eating, building great bubble nest etc .
Ally
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Hi Ally, Can you provide the name of the water conditioner you were using (and perhaps a photo?)? I'd be keen to avoid it in future!...
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Hi
It's was tetra - Aqua safe . It claims to neutralise chorine, chorimine , copper zinc and lead .
Protects gills and mucous membranes of fish !
Ally
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The only information I can find on that dechlorinator is here (http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm) but I don't know if this is out of date as the link to the product doesn't work and Tetra's current site says it is a new formula.
In the table in the link, it says Tetra Aqua Safe contains sodium hydroxymethane sulfinate, polyvinyl pyrollidones, organic hydrocolloids, organic chelating compounds.
Tetra's website says the new formula contains "bio colloids for beneficial bacteria growth which supports the creation of clear water" (the hydrocolloids?)
Sodium hydroxymethane sulfonite is the chlorine removing chemical.
Organic chelating compounds remove metals.
Polyvinylpyrrolidone is the one that 'protects gills and mucous membranes' as stated on the front of the bottle. If you want to know what this is, I suggest you google it. Wikipedia (yes, I know, not the most reliable source) describes its uses, and they don't include coating fish!
I wouldn't use this dechlorinator.
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Hello All,
I have used Tetra Aqua Safe since 2014, and have never had any "fin" problems with my fish.
Skittler
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It might just be that Ally's fish is sensitive to one of the ingredients. In the same way that my husband came out in blotches after using a cough medicine. The pharmacist said it wasn't necessarily dextromethorphan hydrobromide (the active ingredient) that caused it; it could have been the colouring or the flavouring or one of the other non-active ingredients such as the chemical that made it gloopy.
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@Sue I was with you until you got all scientific Can you evplain your technical term 'gloopy' please. I do hope you havnt been experimenting on the current Mr Sue or if you have that its a double blind cough medicine trifle you baited the trap with :)
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I have also use Tetra Aquasafe, but then I've used several different dechlorinators in the past 12 months.
On the caudata forum several people have axolotls that have a reaction to anything with aloe vera in it.
As with everything, some animals are more sensitive to different things than others.
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Hi
And yet aloe Vera is a natural product with healing properties .
Ally
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True.
Peanuts are also natural (and edible), yet lots of people have huge reactions if they eat them. :yikes:
:)
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Aloe vera may be natural in the sense that it grows and isn't synthesised in a chemical plant, but is it naturally occurring in rivers and lakes? If not, it is not natural for fish to become coated with it.
Using aloe vera adds organic waste to the tank. API say that they don't recommend the aloe vera containing Stress Coat in tanks with protein skimmers (marine tanks), which are designed to remove organic waste. Presumably the protein skimmers work overtime and get clogged up or whatever happens to them..
Some one on another forum is fond of saying that everything we add to a tank ends up inside the fish. For this reason he advocates adding a little as possible to a tank.