Fin Rot ?

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Offline Ally2

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Fin rot ?
« on: October 23, 2016, 05:35:58 PM »
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Hi
I'm wondering if moonbeam has fin rot. While cleaning himout put him in his jug and looked at him at the window . Seems like his top fin looks torn ? And his colours near his body faded . Will try and post pictures .

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2016, 07:05:39 PM »
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It's difficult for me to tell because I don't know what his fins normally look like when they are on show. I've had a look through some of your previous posts to find pictures, and in some of them his fins do look a little neater, but again, difficult to tell.
Hopefully one of the others will be able to help, but until then make ure that your water parameters are perfect, perhaps do a partial water change just to be on the safe side.

Offline Sue

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2016, 07:08:30 PM »
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It doesn't look quite right for finrot. Do you have anything in the tank he could have caught his fins on? Bettas are very prone to tearing their fins on rough or sharp objects.
Water changes are indeed the way to go - and if he has torn his fins they will help prevent an infection getting into the cut edge.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2016, 07:36:49 PM »
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Hi

I've done a 25 percent water change today , is that enough ? Should I do it every day ?
Everything is smooth , but he sleeps against the filter outlet , but has done that for 5 months . I'm trying to post a better photo on my phone at the moment. Could he have nipped himself ? Is it worth getting the fin rot treatment just in case ?
Ally

Offline Sue

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2016, 07:41:18 PM »
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Some bettas do bite their tails, but I've not come across one biting their dorsal fin as the tail is much easier to reach. If he rests against the filter, the current going in could have torn his fin. Mine likes to sleep in odd places including the bracket holding the heater and he burnt a chunk off his tail doing this - I now have a heater guard.

I would do smallish daily water changes for a week and see if that helps. And if you want to get some medication in, go for eSHa 2000.

Offline Andy The Minion

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2016, 08:40:29 PM »
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Ally2, If the filter intake is slotted hard plastic you could cable tie a layer of open cell foam around it to stop his finny bits getting sucked in?

Offline Ally2

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2016, 10:18:50 PM »
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Hi
It did think it hard for him to reach his dorsal fin! I've been trying to get a photo and studying him on video. It seems like the colour has gone out of it . It looks black spotty and slightly rolled? My tank temp is 26
As for covering the filter outlet with sponge , isn't this going to block the filter working . Behind the plastic slots is the ceramic filter cartridge , and the carbon filter .
He has been doing this for 5 months and never hurt himself .

Offline Sue

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2016, 09:47:42 AM »
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I'd be tempted to get some eSHa 2000 and keep it in the cupboard until you are sure it is finrot. Don't be tempted to get melafix or bettafix (same thing, more diluted) as they can cause problems for anabatids by getting into the labyrinth organ. The various -fix medications have aromatic oils in them, hence the smell.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2016, 09:23:50 PM »
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Hi
I've ordered some esha 2000 and Indian almond leaves . I've also done another water change and put a sponge over the filter outlet . It's a rather dense sponge so I've cut some holes in it .

Offline Ally2

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2016, 09:26:38 PM »
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Photos from another angle

Offline Ally2

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2016, 08:23:26 PM »
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Hi
Please help I got the esha 2000. It's says too things that have worried me . One is it's says remove carbon active filter media as they can obsorb the product or realease toxins ?
Under precautions it says if using water conditioners . Do they mean the stuff that  makes water safe by removing chorines etc ?
It says to keep the filter running day and night ?
But says remove the carbon filter I'm confused . It says it's safe for tropical fish but doesn't list the fish . So is it safe for all tropical fish ?
Allison

Offline Ally2

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Re: Fin rot ? Treatment removed snails
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2016, 08:34:54 PM »
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Hi
All I have removed the zebra snails before treatment . I don't have a second heater so they are in a bucket without heat. Will they be ok in there while I treat the tank for three days ?
Allison

Offline Sue

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2016, 08:53:47 PM »
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eSHa as a company doesn't believe in dechlorinators so they say we shouldn't use them. On their website they say that dechlorinators remove chlorine and heavy metals but that there should be no heavy metals in drinking water and that all you need to do for chlorine is let it gas off. This does not get around the fact that snails and shrimps are affected by metals at much lower concentrations than fish, and at the levels safe for human consumption; and that lots of places use chloramines rather than chlorine which doesn't gas off. Besides which, I would have to leave rather a lot of water standing round to allow chlorine gas off and I don't think my husband would be very happy about that.
The website also says
Quote
Under normal circumstances and dosages water conditioners cause no problems. However when used excessively, because of their strong binding capacities, water conditioners (de-chlorinators, heavy metal binders, etc.) can potentially decrease the effectiveness of products such as disease treatments, algae / snail treatments, etc. or even give rise to reactions.
The red text is my highlighting.

So provided you use your dechlorinator at the dose rate on the bottle for just the amount of new water added at a water change, using dechlorinator is fine.



The reason it says to remove the carbon in a filter is that carbon adsorbs medication, removing it from the water. But you only need to remove the carbon, unless of course all that's in the filter is a carbon cartridge. And if the carbon has been in there for over a month it will be full anyway. Yes there is a slight chance that the medication will be more strongly attracted by the carbon and it could push off the the less attracted other stuff already there, but this is quite small. If a carbon cartridge is the only medium and it is not changed regularly, leave it there. if there is something else in the filter besides carbon, remove it and replace it with something else - you don't need carbon anyway.
And the filter should always be running 24/7 with or without medication.


eSHa 2000 is safe for all fish. It does not name any species that could have adverse reactions. Some medications do name certain species, for example a lot of whitespot medications say to use at half dose with scale-less fish such as loaches. Since 2000 does not name any species, it is safe with all fish.



eSHa does list the products not safe with snails and 2000 is one of those. Yes, remove the snails. They will be fine in the bucket, their metabolism will just slow down. I've done this with my nerite snails when I've had to treat the fish. Make sure the bucket is covered as nerites can and will climb out. Even an old towel will keep them in. Because there is no filter in there, change the water a couple of times a day and keep the bucket in the warmest room you have.
You will need to remove every trace of the medication before putting the snails back. It will take a lot longer than three days before you can put them back, I'm afraid.
Ways to remove the med are:
Lots and lots of water changes
Carbon in the filter, preferably several small batches rather than one big one. And throw the carbon away afterwards.
After using carbon I use a piece of Poly-Filter. This is not filter wool/ filter floss but a special, very expensive, medium for removing all sorts of things including medications. Because it is expensive I use it as the final stage after the water changes and carbon have removed the vast majority.

However, just removing the med from the water does not seem to be enough. I have killed nerites by putting them back too soon. I have begun to think that meds are absorbed by algae, and when the snails eat this algae they get poisoned.
I would leave the snails in the bucket for at least a month. And if you have more than one, don't put them all back together. Just one at first.
This applies to virtually all medications not just eSHa 2000.





Offline Ally2

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2016, 10:14:21 PM »
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Hi Sue
Thank you for your quick reply, as I wanted to dose the tank tonight .
So far I've removed snails , put in bucket with tap safe added , put the carbon filter in with the snails , with two mossy balls and an algae wafer ! They are by a radiator .
The main tank has a large sponge, ceramic beads in a cartridge,
 and then a carbon filter . So removing the carbon filter still leaves the other two in the tank .
I've put in the recommended dose of six drops , then for the next two days it says three drops .
Thank you for telling me not to put snails back as I certainly wouldn't have known to wait a month or so .
When you say after the medicine dosing to do large water changes before putting the snails back what percentage ?
 Also after day three of giving the medication do I need to remove most of the water to get the medication out ?
Do I need to clean throughly everything such as stones , bogwood etc ?
Or should the medication be left in the tank to work after three days ?
Allison

Offline Sue

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2016, 12:09:26 PM »
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When I've dosed eSHa 2000 I've done the 3-dose course then waited for 2 or 3 days before doing a water change. With a small tank I do at least 50%, which gets rid of half the medication, then put carbon in the filter which will remove some more. A couple of days later, another 50% water change and new carbon. And again a couple of days later.
You can't put the carbon media you've just taken out back in the tank as it will be at least partly full depending when you last changed it; you need new carbon. And a few batches of new carbon over the following week.
If you intend using Poly-Filter, I would do at least three new carbon batches because Poly-Filter is expensive, and the more med you can get out with water changes and carbon, the less Poly-Filter you need to use.

It would be a good idea to scrub everything that is scrubable. As I said earlier I'm beginning to think that algae absorbs some med and then the snails eat it with fatal results. But do the scrubbing as the last stage after a few water changes with new carbon.

The media left in the filter should be able to cope especially as you've removed the snails' bioload. But you will need to monitor the bucket of water with the snails for ammonia and do 100% water changes as necessary. That isn't difficult with a bucket  :)

Offline Ally2

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2016, 08:31:06 PM »
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Hi
Sue what kind of carbon do you use ? I recently changed the one that was in the tank about three weeks ago ( will check the date ) I've only got one new one spare to replace, and have no car now until next week as there are no marine shops near me .
Do you buy yours online ? The tank I have had carbon in a cartridge that slots in the back of the tank. Is there another way I can put carbon in , in s different form ?
When you say throughly clean tank do you mean remove the substrate too ?
Allison

Offline Ally2

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2016, 08:36:38 PM »
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Photo of moonbeams finrot ?

Offline Sue

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2016, 09:52:42 AM »
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Sorry, I should have been clearer. After the medication course has finished, when you do the water changes, make sure you hoover the gravel well with the siphon tube and scrub one piece of decor at each water change over the next month. I forgot to mention before that decor grows biofilm in which the 'filter' bacteria live so it is not a good idea to scrub all the decor at once.


I use carbon granules which can be bought from anywhere, including Wilkinsons in their pet section. But I use it by putting the granules in a net back inside a separate, small, cheap internal filter. But with a small tank this isn't practical or the tank would end up like a whirlpool.
Does anywhere on-line sell your cartridges? I would suggest using three or four new ones, leaving each one in the tank for 3 days before replacing it. The one you took out to add the med will be full after 3 weeks so it won't remove much, if any, of the medication if you were to put it back.


Once you've finished removing medication it would be worth keeping a couple of the carbon cartridges in the cupboard, but don't put any back in the filter. It isn't needed full time. The simplest would be either -
Replace the cartridge with a layer of filter wool which you can buy on a roll and cut to size. Filter wool doesn't wash well and needs replacing frequently but it is cheap and doesn't hold many bacteria. But it is good for removing fine particles.
Or make a tiny slit in the cartridge's casing, remove the carbon and stuff the cartridge with sponge
Or leave it out completely.

Offline Ally2

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2016, 12:09:50 PM »
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Hi Sue
Moonbeam doesn't seem to be showing any signs of improvements 😥
He's now had three days of the treatment .
Today I normally do my water change and Hoover . ( I do have a battery Hoover that doesn't remove water as it has a net , so could use that )
I last did a water change Tuesday before starting the treatment on Thursday .
Should I do a small water change today ? Or leave it ? I'm now concerned about water parameters .
As for cleaning the aquarium . I have bogwood which has plants attached and smooth pebbles , and plants so not alot to clean . Not sure what to do about cleaning bogwood !
Is this all to save the snails or does this need to be done for the fish too?
Help don't know what to do if there is no improvement in him
Allison

Offline Sue

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Re: Fin rot ?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2016, 12:21:49 PM »
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All the cleaning is for the snails' benefit.


I would use the battery cleaner today to leave the medication in a bit longer.

It is difficult to know about the betta. My last one always seemed to have finrot which never really went away. It would get a bit better with treatment, then get worse afterwards. In the end I stopped treating the tank and just accepted that it was him and that I had a fish with a bit less than perfect fins. He lived for 2 years, the edges of his fins were always ragged but no more than that.

My current betta is just the opposite. I've had him since February last year and apart from when he burned his tail on the heater, which regrew, his has perfect fins.


Provided your betta's fins don't start to totally disintegrate, I would just accept that the edges of his fins are never going to be perfect.

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