Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Health => Topic started by: Chucklett on September 21, 2012, 09:11:08 AM
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I'll kick-start this section with a fat Dwarf Chain Loach.
Ashamed to admit Ive not had time lately to sit and watch my fish of an evening like I would normally do, so Im not quite sure when my Loach started to get fat. I noticed about 10 days ago that I suddenly had a rather fat fish. Is "she" full of eggs, or is there something wrong?
(erm...... I tried to insert a couple of photos, but cant figure out how to! Anyone????)
EDIT: Its okay, Ive sussed it! Photos below.........
Thanks.
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I see what you mean, it does look a bit on the large side. But it doesn't look ill from the pic. It reminds me of a certain famous clown loach - google 'clown loach marge'.
I've had a sick dwarf chain loach, that went really thin within a few weeks of buying them and died. I think that was 'skinny disease', which yours obviously doesn't have.
I've just cheated.
I'm a member of a local fish website that has virtually no traffic these days, but I know that a member there was very into loaches and had just about every one available to the trade. I've found a post by him on another forum where the pic of the loach was a lot fatter than yours. He said that female dwarf chain loaches are still very streamlined when full of eggs and have a green to golden hue on the sides of their abdomens. He thought the loach in that post had tumours but recommended treating with sterazin to rule out parasites.
It's worth thinking about the sterazin option, maybe treat separately from the main tank if you decide to - I know your shrimps are in your other tank, but I still like to be careful about adding something to the main tank.
Edit: the chap I quoted is actually the owner of the local fish forum, and he's chairman of the Loach Association of Great Britain, so I would assume he knows what he's talking about!!!
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Thanks Sue. Not what I wanted to hear though!
I will treat her in the QT. I dont agree with subjecting healthy fish to unnecessary treatment and besides, it would take a lot more medication to treat the main tank rather than the 28 litre hospital!
I notice that Sterazin treats internal parasites. Ive just looked in my cupboard at the Esha 2000 that treats "parasitic infections".
Whenever possible, I like to coincide setting up the QT when doing a water change. Im doing this tank tomorrow (Saturday). If the Esha 2000 is suitable, I can put her in the QT tomorrow. It will probably be a few days before I can get my hands on Sterazin. Im pretty sure the two shops near me dont sell Waterlife - I have to go to MA for that. It will be quicker to get some off ebay - it would be here Monday or Tuesday.
Should I try Esha 2000 or wait and get Sterazin?
Thanks ;)
EDIT: By the way, I meant to say that yes she is otherwise healthy. Feeding OK, swimming around, etc. The only thing Ive noticed is that she does tend to spend a bit more time sat on the sand under the "cave-thing" than the others do. Shes not under there all the time, just a bit more than the rest. Of course, when she's sat on the sand she's kinda bobbing on her belly! Her fins dont reach the sand so she leans to one side for a while then shuffles a bit, leans the other way.
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If you've got the esha I'd be inclined to try it and see what happens. If it does nothing, you can always run carbon/polyfilter then try sterazin. According to esha's website, they don't seem to have a specific antiparasitic like other makes. Unless you count exit for whitespot and velvet but they're external not internal.
Another posibility for medication might be wormer plus. It's sold for discus but can be used for any fish. I used it on my loach with skinny disease, though the loach was probably too far gone and didn't make it. It may have changed since I bought it a few years ago, but it was a powder back then rather than a liquid.
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Righto, will get her in the QT later and try the Esha. Will update in the week how things are going.
As always, thanks Sue ;)
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I've seen quite a few loaches get fat like this with no apparent ill health apart from looking a bit unsightly, will be interesting to see what happens with any treatments
I used to work with Marge's owner, Didn't realise how famous that fish was!
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Set up the QT yesterday and finally managed to catch Porky! Obviously she wasnt too impressed to begin with, sulking in the corner, but she soon settled down and started to swim around wondering what shes done wrong to be in Solitary Confinement. She's fine this morning and has had a wee bit of breakfast.
Peter - Im intrigued that you've seen "quite a few loaches" like this. Have you seen it with other fish or just loaches? Any species in particular more than others? Tell me more! (please!)
I will certainly keep you posted in how treatments go. I started the Esha 2000 yesterday, so we shall see if theres any improvement during the week. If not, my backup plan is to get the Sterazin that Sue mentioned. If anybody out there has knowledge about this problem, I would be very grateful for their input..... In the meantime, Im off to research it.
Thanks.
EDIT: Half-hour researching has reminded me why I dont like researching! I end up confused with all the contradicting opinions. All Ive managed to find so far is that "she" could be full of eggs and needs a males attention to lay them - in which case putting her in the QT is the worse thing I could have done. Another explanation is that shes just greedy & fat. I found a couple of videos where people are questioning spawning activity or fighting. Ive often seen two of my sids behaving the same way, ie. going round & round each other in circles, rubbing against each other and losing colour. Because of the colour loss, I thought they were fighting - never occured to me they may be spawning? Anybody know?
I also found photos of gravid female sids (one of which is on the International Loach Association site). Yes they have a green/gold hue to their abdomens but no I wouldnt say they look streamlined.
Have I just put a gravid female into quarantine???? I think it was Natalia that once said never to treat a fish when you dont know for sure whats wrong with it. Those words are ringing in my ears right now ???
Im not looking to argue or contradict anybody - I just want to do right by my fish ;)
By the way, Marge was quite a magnificent specimen wasnt she?
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Have dwarf chain loaches ever spawned in a tank? I know that comercially they have to be treated with hormones to get them to breed, but it's possible someone may have had some luch in a home tank, but it would be very rare. So the chances of 'curing' a female by having her lay with a male present just seems a bit..... off beam.
Going round and round in circles and losing their colour is a dominance thing not breeding. I've seen it with my loaches.
In your researches, if you ever come across anything by Mark Dufill aka Mad Duff, that's the chap I mentioned before. I would be inclined to believe whatever he says!
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Yes they have spawned in home aquariums - though as you say, it is rare. Most of the threads I found were old, no posts for a few years, but I have found a thread from this month where someone has Sidthimunki eggs in their tank and has been replied to from another member who also has eggs. Twice in one month suggests that either its becoming more common in our home tanks or the keepers are mistaken as to who laid the eggs! Im open-minded about it - given that it is rare to witness Otocinclus breeding behaviour in home aquariums, even rarer for them to spawn and almost unheard of for any of the eggs to hatch. Ive had the lot happen in my molly tank! (granted I cheated a bit by popping two plant leaves into a floating fry trap so the eggs couldnt get eaten!)
I guess I should have been a bit clearer regarding a female needing a males attention in order for her to lay the eggs. Sorry! That statement was made regarding "most fish" and was questioning if Dwarf Chain Loaches were the same.
And yes I did wonder if the circular behaviour was a dominance thing. The colour loss suggested fighting rather than breeding! Thanks for clearing that one up.
I will keep an eye out for the chap you mention. Thanks for giving his name(s) - I didnt like to ask in case you werent allowed to say! I shall try to retrace my steps this morning to see if I can find anything from him regarding fat loaches. Will report back with any findings.
Meanwhile, I have just found an interesting article he wrote in 2008. He had 36 sids and was lucky enough to have them spawn. Even luckier to have 6 juveniles survive! So in answer to our question, yes it has happened in a home aquarium!
EDIT: I always remember something after Ive posted! I meant to say that I did find a few photos of fat sids on google this morning. Quite a few of them looked like Porky and none of the owners were worried. I got the impression that its just one of those things with sids - big bodied females can get quite chunky. One guy was getting many replies of "wow thats some chunky monkey" and such comments. Like I said though, they were all old threads so there was no point in signing up to ask questions. Though I will admit to registering with the forum of the thread from this month regarding eggs.
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A quick update....
Esha 2000 hasnt done anything. Whilst in the QT, I thought Id feed her only once-a-day. She happily had a bit of breakfast Sunday morning but yesterday (Monday), although she was interested in the food, she didnt actually eat anything. I thought perhaps she just doesnt like the flake on offer so this morning I gave her a bit of frozen food (tropical feast) and she wasnt even interested in it. She just stayed sat on her favourite leaf watching the food float by. I know she loves frozen food.
Should I put her back in the main tank? Is she upset at being on her own and gone off her food?
Plan B was to get some Sterazin if the Esha did nothing but Im worried about keeping her in the QT if she isnt eating.
Thanks.
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The ones i've seen get fat have been mainly in retail tanks, where there is more than ample food, so it was usually just attributed to greedy fish. When you have lots of fish in one tank which are fed several times a day (shop tanks), it is easy for the quicker, greedier specimens to consume more than their fair share!
Years ago I used to work at a shop where we had loads of loach species, and odd individuals used to get quite 'chunky'. It didn't seem to happen with other fish though.
I don't mind admitting that health issues are not my strong point though so it could certainly be a health issue as well.
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Thanks Peter.
Although she seemed to settle into the QT quite quickly, I really do think she's now stressed out. Ive just moved house so they all had quite an upheaval only 4 weeks ago so maybe finding herself in the QT so soon after moving is too much for her.
I understand it could be a health issue, but of course it may not be - maybe she does just get more than her fair share of food. Either way, keeping her stressed in the QT is asking for more problems than I/she have already got. On that basis, I think I will abandon 'Plan B' (Sterazin), put her back into the main tank tomorrow and keep an eye on her. That sounds a better option than keeping her stressed in the QT not eating.
Any opinions or other ideas? Anybody?
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Hi Chucklett :-)
I've developed quite an interest in loaches recently but not got any Sids but do have some black lined, golden zebra and just zebra now.
Tbh if you feel the fish is getting stressed in the qt tank then i would place her back with the others and not do any further treatment unless you know what for definite what it is you are treating. As you know, loaches are very social and i feel she would be better off with the group rather than waiting to see if anything further develops with her whilst she is in the qt.
Jmo.....:-)
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Hi Julia :)
Great to see you back ;) Ive not had time to look around the site and join in with much - just moved house and trying to pass motorbike tests in my spare time! (2 down, 1 to go), so apologies for not saying hello to you before now!
Thanks for your post. I hate not being sure what to do for the best. I still consider myself to be a newbie at fishkeeping so dont have the confidence to make executive decisions! Give me a bird and Im on the case no problem LOL!
Anyway, I checked back here before your post and so had to make an executive decision :o I put Porky back in the main tank yesterday afternoon and the others greeted her with delight. She's been happily swimming around with them ever since (though still takes some time-out under the cave-bit-thing) and was straight in there for tea last night (and breakfast this morning), with everybody else as usual. I was satisfied that I'd made the right decision - even more so this morning after reading your reply ;)
All I can do now is keep an eye on her and research more (ugh.... if I can pluck up the courage to!)
Im beginning to find a bit more "me-time" so hopefully catch up with you, and the site, a bit more - especially after Ive passed my final bike test!
Thanks again ;)
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Hello and it's nice to be back...hadn't appreciated how much I had missed this forum until it disappeared!! ;D
I think, as fishkeepers, we can all be guilty of being a little over zealous sometimes with worrying about ur fish and always think the potential worst possible scenario. Glad you moved Pork back and that you saw a pretty instant result
There is another forum where you may get more of a definitive answer possibly and it's very specific to your particular species.....
;)
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It could possibly be to do with hierachy developed in botia loaches. I kept a group of botia striata, sorry for latin but theres to many common names, the domonant female of the group became a lump shed always eat first and what she wanyed while the others waited. Once finished the others would dive in. She ruled the group so might be worth when you get a chance have a look and see if shes the boss like clown loach marge as well.
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Thanks for your thoughts Don. I watched her for a while when I put her back into the main tank and couldnt notice anything different about her other than her size!
Ive recently tried to see if she's looking any bigger than before, but its difficult to tell since I see her every day!
A typical day for her is to swim around with the others, but likes to take time-out under the logs (that Ive placed to make caves). Occasionally another fish, not necessarily a loach, will come and poke her. She'll shuffle a few inches then settle again. When she's had enough "me-time", she's off swimming with the others again. Feeding time, she's straight in with everyone else. Ive tried to see if she eats more than the others, but she doesnt seem to be any greedier than the next fish.
I will make a point of watching her for a while again to see if anythings changed. To be honest, Ive been more pre-occupied with my other tank for the last couple of weeks. The water here is a nightmare (starts clear and turns brown when running the tap ??? with a pH of 8+). Even though I leave the water stand to let the pH drop, Ive twice lost two mollies on a Monday after water-change at the weekend.......
So this weekend, I drew the water from the tap one bucket at a time (leaving 1/2 hour between buckets so as to avoid the brown water), left the water stand 36 hours, then added it to the tank one bucket at a time (1/2 hour between buckets). Now sitting with all-things-crossed......
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Fingers crossed, sounds like what my alpha female did, she was huge will see if i can dig out a pic. Thats not good i cant imagine what went through your mind when you saw that the first time and tested it. That sounds like its making maintenance a nightmare. Sorry to here you lost fish too. Keep me updated on how it goes.
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I fell off my perch when I first tested the tap water here! The test tube went straight to deep purple with the first drop of solution :o We thought the water might get better over time as the property had been empty a few months before we moved in. Although the pH is now coming out at around 8.2, we still dont understand why the water should get browner the more the tap is running. Ive never heard of it that way round! We're going to get onto the water company this week to question it.
Yes it makes tank maintenance a mission, but I refuse to let it take the pleasure out of fishkeeping! I will always do my best by my fish and if that means having a hefty regime to stick to, then thats how it is I guess! Hopefully, its only a temporary measure and we manage to get the water sorted out in due course eh?
Thanks Don, I will indeed keep you posted and yes I would be interested to see a picture of your alpha if you manage to dig one out ;)
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If your water is that bad from the mains, I would definitely contact the water company. It doesn't sound good at all, not for the fish or for you drinking it.
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Congratulations Sue, Ive just noticed you've been promoted to "Junior Member" ;D
The water is so bad we seriously thought we must be on an old tank in the loft. Having discussed it with my dad, he's sure we're on the mains because the hot water heats up in a minute or two from the boiler (can hear the boiler kick in when turning on the hot tap). If we were on a tank, it would take a lot longer and we would have an immersion heater. We're definitely going to get on to the water Company. Will keep you posted.
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I'm not 100% sure but I think you progress from newbie to jr member at 50 posts - that's round about where I noticed I'd moved up a grade ;D
Have you had a look in the attic? Because of tales of houses where the only mains water is the kitchen tap, whenever we've moved house I've sat next to the attic tank and got someone to run the bathroom cold tap to see if the water there came from the tank or the mains (water soon starts to run into the tank if the tap runs from the tank). All this because it is not safe to even clean your teeth in the bathroom if the cold water comes from the tank. Doing that would tell you which of your taps run off the mains and which don't.
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No we havent looked in the loft. The hatch is all of 18" square - a child could get up there! My sister-in-law stuck her head up and was faced with the chimney stack!
My husband was going to squidge up and have a look last week, but one of the housing reps happened to drop by so we asked them if we are on the mains and they are "sure" that we are. They told us to get onto the water company.
The cold water does the same in bathroom and kitchen - runs clear for a minute or two then slowly turns browner & browner the longer you run it. The electric shower doesnt seem to do it, nor the hot taps. Though I havent really run the hot taps particularly long enough to tell. I will try them before ringing the water company, just so I know exactly whats what when I phone!
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You could always try sticking your head and shoulders into the hole and listening for water running in the attic ;D ;D ;D
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Brown water is usually caused by iron deposits in your pipes. These deposits are caused, generally, by cast-iron pipes which, over time, will rust. These deposits settle in low activity areas of the supply. They can be disturbed by any changes in flow, you turning on your tap for example, and result in yukky water.
The problem may be the water companies responsibility, or it may not. Once the water has crossed from the street into your land, it becomes your responsibility.
The government produces some information leaflets about steps you can take (see link below). See especially "Discoloured water/Particles in drinking water" and "Looking after water in your home".
Drinking Water Inspectorate (http://dwi.defra.gov.uk/consumers/advice-leaflets/)
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Interesting reading SteveS, thanks for that.
Iron. Wow. I had problems with iron last year (detected by running polyfilter which turned bright orange). Natalia concluded it was leaching from the plant substrate under the gravel. I stripped both tanks down and removed the plant substrate - all was well after that. Im now thinking I should run polyfilter for a while again.
I phoned the water Company yesterday and was told to run the kitchen cold tap for one hour, checking every ten minutes. Philosophy being that this would flush the problem out. I was skeptical, but did as advised. After half-an-hour I was beginning to think what a waste of time/water. Then amazingly, at 40 minutes, the water was running clear again. I still left it the whole hour and the water was still clear. I live in hope that when I draw my 4 buckets tomorrow, the water will still be clear. I dont want to try it out before then because we are on a metre! (they credited an hour to our account for the "flushing"). And besides, I want to see that the problem wont re-occur in the meantime.
The good news for now is that I havent lost any fish since water change at the weekend. In fact, Ive gained fish - one of my oldest female mollies gave birth Monday night! She didnt wait for lights-out this time so I actually saw a wee fry pop out ;D (though I turned the lights off for her after that because she was trying to see off the other fish whilst giving birth!)
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Thats useful to no steve.
We have a tank but its been disconected as a combi boiler has been installed. I found our tank because there was a weird patch of damp mould in our bedroom upstairs on the ceiling with nothing around it, went in the loft and there it was. I guess water was condensing on the metal. so if you have a random patch of condensation mould it could be a left over tank if it has been bypassed.
That sounds like possible good news hopefully steve was right and the iron deposits have been flushed out Even better news that you have lost nothing else since the last water change and the mollys are at it again, i cant remeber what your water peramiters were before but it may be even better for the mollies with the harder water as aparently they like it like that, part of the reason mine always died as my water is beyond soft.
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In an older house, a damp patch could also be a leaking tank! My elder son and his wife bought a 1940s house last year. The mortgage surveyor said he thought the roof was leaking but it turned out to be the attic tank on the point of disintegration. And back in the 1970s my father was getting a suitcase out of the attic and noticed a patch of rust on his tank. The plumber who replaced it said it could have developed into a hole at any time so it was a good job he'd found it.
More modern houses have plastic tanks so at least they shouldn't rust.
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Older tanks are made from galvanized steel, so if they corrode this could be a further source of iron in your water.
Incidentally, if you have unpressurised central heating, you will need a feed and expansion tank but this should be separate from the break tank connected to your hot and cold water system because the central heating contains some quite nasty chemicals to prevention corrosion and lime scale build-up!
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Curiouser and Curiouser!!!! You guys are really making me wonder what is in our loft! When we moved in, half the bathroom ceiling was peeling from damp (well, saturation actually!). Damp patches extended into the kitchen and hallway ceilings / upper parts of the walls, though not to the extent of peeling paint. The repair guys came and found a tile missing off the roof. They replaced it, peeked in the loft (head through the hatch!) and declared the missing tile was the cause. We took their word for it that nothing else untoward was going on........ I do hope they were right - I dont fancy sticking my head in that wee hole! To be fair, the ceiling does seem to have since dried out and the repair guys have painted the affected ceilings/walls with special paint. One or two small patches in the bathroom have started showing through again, but I gather damp is a nightmare to cover up without it coming back through.
We assume there is a tank of some nature in the loft. The property is around 50+ years old and we know that a new central heating system was installed just prior to us moving in. We guess thats when the open fireplace was blocked off.
Don, we too have softer-than-a-babies-bottom water in the sunny South West! I also thought that the higher pH would be better for my mollies so I tried to "acclimatise" the tank to the tap pH. For a couple of weeks, when doing a water change, I slowly added one bucket straight from the tap (correct temperature & dechlorinated of course!). A couple of hours later, I slowly added another bucket. Another couple of hours, I slowly added the third bucket and finally the fourth bucket another couple of hours later. Blow me, the tank still came out at pH 7.4 :o I concluded that trying to mess with the pH like that was worse than keeping it at the 7.4 its been stable at for the last 21/2 years. Thats when I decided to let the water stand, allowing it to drop to 7.4 before using it in the tank.
Really, it was only the black molly (Dreckly) that would strongly object to the water. The slightest thing out of the ordinary for her and she would break out in mould (saprolegnia). She was one of the two that died last Monday :(
SteveS, your post about unpressurised central heating lost me. Sorry :-[
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You can't mess with your pH that way! Whether you let the water stand before adding it to the tank, or adding it to the tank immediately, it's still the same water with the same chemicals and hence, ultimately, the same pH. The main reason the pH changes when you let the water rest is that the gasses dissolved in the water whilst it is under pressure in your pipes is released when it is under no pressure in your bucket, (or aquarium).
SteveS, your post about unpressurised central heating lost me. Sorry :-[
A traditional, or old, central heating system is filled with water from a tank in the loft. When the water is heated, it expands and the excess is forced back into this tank. It is called an unpressurised system because the excess pressure caused by the expansion is released by blowing the water back into the tank, called a feed and expansion tank. Because water is forced from the system itself, any contaminants in the water are released back into this tank. This is why it must be separate from your normal break tank that feeds the rest of your house.
A modern heating system is filled with water and then sealed. Any expansion just increases the pressure in the heating system itself. There is no release. (Well, there will be some form of safety valve in case anything goes haywire). These systems are more efficient as you do not lose heat into the feed and expansion tank and you can drive them to higher temperatures.
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Hmmm could possibly be leaking, the house is about 110 years old so proably a rotten water tank. Needs to come out anyway as i said its been bypased by the combi boiler presuried system. Its ideal for me with my south americans think both my tanks are ph 6.2 harness 3-5 degrees.
Mollys can be funny things ive known people to keep them at ph 8 an brackish and they love it apparently. Im guessing your other fish are doing fine? Sounds like trial and error but if the added tap water wether left to stand or aclimatised isnt affecting the tank ph then you may be okay. Am i correct in thinking you say the water is soft but the ph is 8 or so?
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You can't mess with your pH that way!
Do you mean leaving the water stand before using it in the tank, or the bit where I tried to "acclimatise" the tank to the tap?
If the former, then its something Ive done for well over a year now. When I first set the tank up (over 2 years ago) the tap was pH 7.4 and the tank was merrily stable at the same rate. For a long time, I could do "normal" maintenance. Then suddenly I started losing fish when doing a water change. A test on the tap water showed it had shot up to pH 8.2 - 8.4. Thats when I started leaving the water stand overnight before using it in the tank and all was well again when doing water changes. It was like that for quite a while before the tap came back down to pH 7.4 and so "normality" resumed, though I still tested the tap every week before water changing as it seemed to fluctuate so much. Sure enough, a while later, the tap shot up again so I was back to leaving the water stand. And thats how its been ever since.
But Im confused (again!) - surely its better to let the tap water stand in order for the pH to drop equal to the tank before putting it in?
If you refer to the latter, then it seemed like a good idea at the time! But yes I realised it wasnt such a bright idea when the tank was still coming out at pH 7.4! Hence why I stopped after a couple of attempts.
Yes Don, all other fish are fine (touch wood). To be honest, I havent actually tested the hardness here yet :-[ Im assuming its just as soft as it was at the flat (about 15 miles away) given that Cornwall is renowed to have soft water. Unfortunatley, my computer is playing up at the mo so I cant access my fishy files to look back at the readings. I cant say off-hand whether the hardness was tested when the pH was lower or higher. Out of interest, I will let you know when I can get into my files and in the meantime, will test the hardness here ;)
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Do you mean leaving the water stand before using it in the tank, or the bit where I tried to "acclimatise" the tank to the tap?
I'm referring to the latter; It won't affect the pH in your tank except, perhaps, for a very short time.
surely its better to let the tap water stand in order for the pH to drop equal to the tank before putting it in?
Hmmm... As a general case, I'm not convinced; I don't see how it can do any harm though.
But I'm confused (again!
Don't be confused, if it works for you, go for it.
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Don't be confused, if it works for you, go for it.
Understood!!!!! ;D