Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Health => Topic started by: fcmf on December 11, 2019, 06:54:31 PM
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I've been observing my fish for considerable time this afternoon.
I've already mentioned that some of the harlequins (age 4.5) are looking elderly. 2 have spinal deformities and 1 has a mild spinal deformity. The one with the most severe spinal deformity also has a cloudy eye - he's spent much of the past year bobbing just below the surface but springs to life when food and especially peas are put in. The other one with a spinal deformity looks as though her tail is broken/droopy; however, she's very observant and likes to play in front of the camera. Wee Harley seems to be in optimum health, but so was her shoalmate Little Harley who fell into a sudden catastrophic and fatal demise one evening this year (following eating frozen brineshrimp).
The x-ray tetras (age 5+) look a bit worse for wear - two have a bad bulging right eye, one has had it via slow onset for years (a dose of eSHa 2000 made little/no difference) and one acquired his in a spat with his shoalmate a few months ago... they bicker constantly now. They're having more difficulty finding food now but this makes them all the more determined to zoom towards it and hunt for it. The other has a spine that curves upwards from the start of the caudal peduncle area, most likely acquired through attempting to rectify a malfunctioning swimbladder. All have voracious appetites.
This isn't about seeking advice - just general observations. Their quality of life does not appear to be affected which is good.
Photos/videos:
Harlequin with the most bent spine - view from above while he was sitting still.
Same harlequin (also with slightly cloudy eye) - view from side... definitely looks elderly!
X-ray tetras - and youtu.be/8RGxMXuFrXE
Harlequin with tail that looks almost broken / droopy (with Wee Harley beside her) - and youtu.be/EeQ5PvHXQhE
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That's some very elderly fish indeed. I also had some harlies make it to a ripe old age. Your photos remind me that in the competitive world of the wild these fish would be unlikely to survive in such a condition. Especially in the case of the cloudy eyes which mine have also occasionally suffered from too.
Currently I have a very elderly honey gourami that has a spat with my Goldeneye dwarf cichlid recently and lost her feelers and ripped her fins - they now get on and you can't tell there was ever a problem, fins regrown etc. She has almost no colour, often rests on the bottom looking sorry for herself but moments later will be happily grazing the plants for algae. I have thought many times that her time might be up but she always seems to bounce back.
Where did you get your fish from by the way? I am surprised by the number of genetic defects (bent spines) you have in your gang.
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Where did you get your fish from by the way? I am surprised by the number of genetic defects (bent spines) you have in your gang.
All my fish have been from the MA franchise, except for the cardinals from PAH. I got the impression that the x-ray's curved-up spine is possibly caused by a malfunctioning swimbladder and corrective swimming action, and that possibly the harlies' bent spines are caused by their swimming against the water current - but I may be wrong. I did wonder when the first harley died - it had become increasingly emaciated - whether it might be fish tuberculosis... hope not!
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This is very interesting, thanks for sharing the pics, clips, and information @fcmf
Just out of curiosity I had a bit of a rummage around on some other sites and there seemed to be so many comments that made sense. From the comments regarding any genetically deformed fish, or fish that may develop deformities through illness of injury usually not surviving in the wild, to problems with inbreeding due to commercial farming of fish. From general old age, again wild verses tank environments, to water parameters. From fish TB (or not), to shock.
The comments and articles that I came across also seemed to cover a variety of fish, various tank inhabitants through to pond koi. I also came across a lot of comments about fish TB being contagious (generally terminal) so unlikely if only some fish effected.
Again, I have to state these were comments I came across during a rummage, not scientific articles from trusted sources found whilst researching. Perhaps it's worth sending the info & pics to the "readers questions" section of PFK to see if they picked up on this topic.
Although I would like to highlight my favourite comment, which was one regarding fish TB, and one chap said he didn't know how closely fish TB was related to human TB, but wasn't aware of fish diseases being passed to humans, with the exception of MTS (multi-tank syndrome). :rotfl:
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Perhaps it's worth sending the info & pics to the "readers questions" section of PFK to see if they picked up on this topic.
Thanks, Littlefish - I might well do just that. As it happens, I have a feeling I'm going to lose those two harlequins and an x-ray imminently - I certainly don't think they'll see the year 2020. The S-bent spine harlequin has gone very flat at his stomach - almost concave - making his eyes appear disproportionately large. The one with the droopy tail seems as though this is even more pronounced than usual - when she eats from the surface, it's as though the tail goes into a U shaped dip. I think the x-ray tetra with the curved-up tail will be next - I think he'll wear himself out attempting to combat a swimbladder resembling a helium balloon from its 'pulling upwards' effects.
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:(
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Would it be right to call these OAF's!? :isay:
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:rotfl:
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Probably quite an appropriate acronym for them.
Poor guys are looking even worse than in the video from a few days ago - the s-bent spined harlequin's belly is now so concave that his gill area looks disproportionately large and he almost looks as though he's in rigor mortis although his heart and respiratory system are clearly working, while the droopy-tailed harlequin's demeanour is fine but the anal fin area seems to have drooped along with the u-shaped tail movements. I'm going to give everyone a pea as a treat tonight - the harlies' favourite food - just in case it's The Last Supper. [Edited to add: https:///youtu.be/RS6WHc1A1pQ]
Admittedly, I was up early this morning to go in to check on them (and the dropsied cardinal tetra) by torchlight.
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Droopy-tailed Harlequin is having trouble with her balance. She moves/flutters along just under the water surface, with an almost u-shaped tail at the caudal peduncle area, but not drinking or breathing/gasping from the surface. The water current tends to send her floating round the tank, then she seems to 'drop' as though the tail (and possibly swimbladder) is unable to cope with this, slightly flips over en route into a plant, at which point S-bent-spined-rigor-mortis-resembling-blind-in-one-eye Harlequin seems to step in to help and nudges her back up - or he thinks she's willing to breed, given that this resembles breeding behaviour in harlies.
If Droopy-tailed Harlequin were not so bright-eyed and alert looking, and S-bent-etc Harlequin not so excited when a pea enters the tank, I might be tempted to intervene - and am quite sure many others would. If she goes, I think he'll be swift to follow - he's becoming so emaciated that his gill area seems larger than his now-concave torso. Suffice to say I'm monitoring the situation closely as to whether and/or when I ought to intervene, possibly for both at the same time. I'd rather nature took the decision out of my hands, though.
https:///youtu.be/4tkmbefB2Mg
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That's interesting to read of your similar experience, @fishtales, and thanks so much for your kind words.
I've just got up, and went to examine the tank. She wasn't 'dancing' around, so I knew nature had taken its course.
Edited:
After some horror that nature had intervened more than I'd expected and that the cardinals had been scavenging on her body (after getting them, I read somewhere that this species have been known to do this :yikes:) - I could only see part of her body as it had folded over - thankfully, she's fully intact... Tail definitely seems to be broken, sadly, but her eyes remain as bright-eyed and alert as ever even although she's now dead.
:'(
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I'm so sorry to hear the news that your harlequin has passed. :'(
Even though elderly, it is still very upsetting when a fish passes.
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Sorry to hear this. Clearly a good life has been had.
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I'm sorry to hear this :(
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Thanks, all of you, for your kind words. Yes, definitely difficult losing a fish, especially one of the most characterful ones. Given the nature of the decline, I think today would have resulted in her rolling around on the bottom, and definitely necessitated some intervention on my part, albeit it didn't come to that; let's just hope that she didn't suffer too much during the night.
I think S-spine Harlequin's demise is imminent...
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It now seems that I can "close the loop" on this thread too, as far as the elderly/ailing harlequins are concerned. As predicted, S-spine Harley's demise was imminent. Last night and this morning, I could scarcely believe how S-curved his spine was and how emaciated he had become, with his gill/eyes looking disproportionately large, and I couldn't comprehend how he could possibly digest any food with such a curvature in his body. I had planned to feed his favourite food - pea - to the tank at lunchtime and monitor the situation closely. Depending on his ability to eat it, I was planning to make the euthanasia decision. As it happens, I've just returned to the room with the tank, and he must have died in the past hour. If I'm honest, I'm somewhat relieved for his sake (and to be spared the decision), although obviously sad to lose him after 4.5+ years.
This leaves two harlies - Wee Harley who appears to be in fine fettle, and one slightly-curved harlequin who suddenly appears to be breathing rapidly, as though having experienced a shock at his shoalmate's death / witnessing his lifeless body being removed by Mr FCMF.
I don't know how long the x-ray tetras have left but their demise doesn't seem as imminent as the two recently departed harlies' demise was.
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S-spine harlie lived a long life with you, longer than most harlies live for. You must be doing something right for him to live to the age he did.
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Thanks very much, both, for your lovely kind words.
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So sorry to hear about s-spine harley. He lived a long life, and was lucky to have you to look after him.
I would be glad that the decision to intervene had been taken out of my hands, but I know it is very upsetting when a fish passes. :'(
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He lived a long happy life... still feel for you @fcmf
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Aw, thanks, both.
I've been observing the fish in detail today, viewing from all angles. The x-rays' difficulties are more apparent ie one is working hard to maintain buoyancy despite his tail curved upwards, while at least one of the others is now completely blind (the one with the longstanding eye problems and former companion of the obese x-ray tetra RIP) - he swam straight into what's left of the anubias attached to the wood and keeps bumping into the tank walls and misjudging where the food is falling. The good news is that, when I fed pea to the tank this afternoon, I purposefully positioned it over the silk plants and it fell onto their leaves; this worked out well as its strong scent guided the x-rays to it and the blind tetra had an absolute feast!
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As it happens, I have a feeling I'm going to lose those two harlequins and an x-ray imminently - I certainly don't think they'll see the year 2020. I think the x-ray tetra with the curved-up tail will be next - I think he'll wear himself out attempting to combat a swimbladder resembling a helium balloon from its 'pulling upwards' effects.
As an update, the aforementioned x-ray is still surviving... he and the completely blind x-ray in the previous post here spend 90% of their time sparring. With his difficulty seeing food, the blind tetra has lived on by availing of food from the snail pot. Just this afternoon, though, I see a white dot with fungus-like strands on the corner of his right/worst eye. It may be the same as my tiger nerite had for a day or two, which I think was a grain of fungused food under his shell and which I was eventually able to remove, with a toothbrush from recollection. I can't see me being able to remove this from the tetra's eye, though... My options are removing him to medicate with anti-fungus treatment in the hospital tank or leaving him be - given his age, skinniness, deteriorating swimbladder function, and the possibility that this is a fungused piece of food rather than a (secondary) fungal infection under the eye, I'm minded to leave him where he is. I'll monitor the situation (and that of his sparring partner with whom there is lots of physical contact) - if need be, the hospital tank may have to come out, whether for use with medication or not.
Edited to add: Problem solved! Half an hour later and the 'fungus' / likely fungused food morsel has dislodged itself and vanished.
Edited again to add: Photo shows blind fish at front left where he tends to 'hang' (when not sparring) - his dodgy eye is quite noticeable.
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Good news! What I thought might be an eventual demise is now off the cards... quite a turn around :fishy1:
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Thanks for the update @fcmf
Glad to hear that they are both still doing well. :)
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I think the 5th of the 6th harlequins doesn't have long left - and won't make it as far as his 5th birthday in 3 months' time. He has been resting near the top and opening/shutting his mouth much more frequently in the past 6-12 months. When viewed from above, his spine is only slightly curved in a mild S shape - much less severe than one of the other harlequins had. However, since the weekend, he's started swimming much more in the middle of the tank; when he does, he seems to stiffen up into a reverse-C shape, with the front half of his body curved to the left almost at 90' - it is at its most acute when swimming near the water outflow. This afternoon, he's started swimming among the plants and I half-expect that the next time I look, he'll be entangled motionless there...
I may be proven wrong, though - I had predicted an imminent demise among the remaining x-ray tetras but it hasn't quite happened yet, although the blind one looks more dead than alive in the evenings, sleeping/hanging almost on his side.
Updated to add (4 hrs later): This harlequin, along with the elderly tetras, ordinarily gets into a frenzy if chopped pea is put into the tank and devours it. Sadly, the fact that he's ignored it, doesn't bode well. He's also been hanging around at the top, then seems to drop/fall into the leaves, then rectifies himself - seems like something neurological is happening. If he survives overnight, but the situation deteriorates to become more frequent, I might have to consider the E word tomorrow. :'(
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Whatever happens we can be sure your harlies have had a good life with you @fcmf
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I agree with Matt, your fish are being looked after incredibly well, and the older ones are still enjoying a long and happy time in your care.
Yesterday I had a bit of a moment when I put the lights on in the river tank. My last zebra danio, which is the sole survivor of the very first fish I bought, is always the first one I look for. She is now approaching her 5th birthday, and has curves she never had in her younger days. Although she is the last zebra, she is with the leopard danios that were bought much later, and seems to be fine in that group. Yesterday she wasn't straight to the front when the lights went on, and the obvious thought crossed my mind. Eventually she emerged when the lid opened for feeding time, and regardless of her current shape, still feeds well and potters around the tank. There's no avoiding the fact that she's knocking on a bit now though, and I find the thought of loosing the last of my first fish quite sad. :(
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Thanks for the kind words, both.
The fish moved at breakfast time, although didn't eat, but the situation was so severe that I lifted out the E equipment which I've left sitting beside the tank. When resting at the top, he doesn't look in distress but is breathing fast; however, when he moves for a swim, it's a different matter. Due to reflections / lack of tank lighting at this time of the day / miraculous improvements or lull in symptoms every time I take out the phone camera, I've managed to take a not-very-clear video from above: https:///youtu.be/lvxk55SF2tw
My gut reaction is to leave this to nature for the time being, unless he starts rolling around on the substrate or in the plants and can't regain control.
I do empathise with those heart-skipping-a-beat moments, @Littlefish, when something is out of the ordinary. There's definitely something about losing the last of a shoal or the last of the original fish that is / will be quite poignant. Glad she is otherwise doing well, though (and that I'm not the only one who has fish with curved spines!).
Updated to add video of blind x-ray tetra: https:///youtu.be/fIDSIjRNBWI
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Pleased to report that Bendy Harley is still alive and actually looking like he's learning to live with his jerking-to-the-left body (which looks as though he's had a stroke). He rests up at the top for most of the day, although seems to free-fall from time to time, then jerkily makes his way around in a circle back to his usual position, behind the dare-I-say-it flourishing plant. Aware that he hasn't been able to retrieve food, I wasn't too optimistic about him lasting to the end of the week.
This evening, though, he's been doing strange swoops and twists into the snail-food pot, creating what looks like a volcanic eruption of ash (snail food) which he and the other fish avail of, then he repeats this a little later. At least it means he's got an appetite and has found a way of eating, much like the blind x-ray tetra.
I don't think he can possibly have long left but at least he's "enjoying" his final days and a little party is happening in the tank this evening.
;D
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All round to fcmf's for the tank party :cheers:
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This morning, the blind tetra's body seemed to be getting cascaded/floating around the tank in the current, slowly somersaulting/free-falling backwards and at all angles. With him being blind and no eye movement, I assumed he was dead, but then realised he wasn't quite. This continued for a couple of hours, and with no resistance from him to attempt to rectify it, while I kept wondering if the E equipment might need brought out again...
Eventually, as there were a few morsels of pea in the substrate from yesterday evening's dinner, and some snail food scattered around from Fri evening's tank party, I decided to vacuum the tank - in essence, the second 50% water change within 65 hours. What a difference this has made - he's returned from looking 99% dead to 60% dead which is quite an achievement. E equipment can stay in the cupboard for now, thank goodness...
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Phew, glad to hear that he perked up. :)
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The slow-motion somersaulting in the current resumed a couple of hours ago. I put a mug on its side in the tank and guided him into it via the net, in the hope he might stay within that confined space but to no avail - probably a breeder box is what I need [edited to add: , or maybe the net covering the mouth and part of the mug and him inside (if that worked and didn't cause him distress at inability to escape ???)]. I cannot possibly see how he'll survive the night after another 8 hours' spiralling, so am fully prepared to find one dead body in the morning (and possibly two if Bendy Harley succumbs too)...
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This experience is certainly broadening my knowledge!
I observed the blind tetra for a considerable duration yesterday evening, occasionally during the night, and again this morning. He loses complete control (presumably of his swimbladder) for about 12 hours while presumably sleeping – I always believed that fish only dozed off and on but this suggests otherwise. [NB it’s not related to lights on/off – lights on 2pm-9pm but this starts at around 8pm and ceases during the morning.] During this time, it as though he is in outer space, completely controlled by the filter current, with absolutely no attempt to rectify himself or the situation at any stage – he tumbles continuously but in slow motion in every direction and angle, sinks to the bottom nose or tail down or diagonally or on his side flat or curled, gets swept up, tossed into a plant, the flow releases him, and so on. He seems oblivious, and the other fish are far more perturbed, nudging his body out of the way if he falls on or among them or into the snail foodpot beside them. This continues after the other fish wake up and move around and eat, then eventually he “comes to” and is back to his usual self during the daytime – sparring with another x-ray tetra mainly, or bumping into others as though for reassurance of their presence, before spending the late afternoon and early evening tilted at an angle but otherwise maintaining buoyancy.
It’s as though he’s part-time dead (during the night) and part-time partially alive (during the day), and during which he has control of his swimbladder (albeit his tail has curved up in his presumable ongoing efforts to maintain buoyancy).
I’m not sure whether a breeder box or positioning of the net to contain him overnight would help – it would certainly reduce any stress among the other fish from his seemingly lifeless body being tossed around but I’m wondering if the oxygenation / movement while being tossed around might be helping him and I would be concerned about any stress on his part if he woke up during the night and found himself trapped. I could put him in the hospital tank minus medication but, being blind, he relies on nudging his way along the tank and bumping into his shoalmates to establish where he is - and I’d be concerned that the curved front on that tank and being isolated might stress him.
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I don't know what to suggest for the best with regards to your blind tetra. :(
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I think the blind tetra's demise is going to be slow. I can't fathom how he's still alive, given how night-time is spent being cascaded around the tank and tumbling almost permanently. Each night, and the following morning, I decide that it might be better to use the E equipment, then change my mind as the day wears on and there are signs of life, including his attempts to retrieve food and his coloured fins. However, his mouth and body have been turning an increasingly grey shade, the tumbling antics are crossing over into daytime interspersed with 3 wiggles of the tail to rectify his position, and much of yesterday and today so far is spent moving/scavenging immediately above the substrate (while swaying from side to side), then doing a forward roll when attempting to pick up a morsel of food, with the occasional rise up, suspended vertically and nose-up. I can't envisage him surviving another week but time will tell.
Bendy Harley spends most of his time hidden behind the one flourishing plant but comes out at food-time and has learned how to retrieve food from a high silk plant leaf - but ends up somersaulting in the process of being in a C shape to retrieve it.
For the time being, I'm letting them enjoy their final days while interest in their environment/food and inquisitiveness remains. Should this wane, then nature might take its course or I might have to review the situation about whether to intervene (especially if the deterioration is marked).
Edited to add videos on 06/03/20:
X-ray tetra (during daytime): https:///youtu.be/nKO95EzMOTQ
Harlequin rasbora: https:///youtu.be/WvvQIBleQqA
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It's Time.
The poor x-ray tetra 'died' in front of my eyes - spiralled into upside-down position amongst the leaves at the top, lay there motionless for a while upside down, then attempted to rectify himself but spiralling horribly and struggling in vain to upright himself. I think it would be cruel to let him spend yet another night potentially doing this.
I feel physically sick at the thought of administering the clove oil but don't think there's an option...
:'(
Edited to add: he was lying on top, upside down and semi-writhing. Everyone else from "the old crowd" (ie all except the cardinals who tend to keep themselves to themselves) clearly knew something was up and were paying undue interest, going up to investigate. There was no alternative. It was all over within 5 seconds. Judging by how upset I am, I'd clearly got rather attached to him in his final days. :'( :'( :'(
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Sorry to hear this fcmf. I have also found it is often when the other fish show interest as they did for you that the time has truely come. Your fish are so well cared for and this is no exception. RIP blind tetra.
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I know it was a difficult decision to make, but you did the right thing. If the other fish were showing an interest, it would have been cruel to leave him there.
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Thanks, both.
I hadn't been aware of this issue of other fish showing an interest in previous imminent deaths - or, at least, I can't recall it at the moment. However, that's very interesting.
I visited the LFS and got quite emotional and choked up when looking in the tank of x-ray tetras. Mr FCMF spotted some razorback turtles and, on enquiring about their life expectancy, suggested we get them in future as it might spare me the upset of losing a pet!
It's quite strange not having sparring going on in the tank. I thought that the remaining two x-ray tetras might spar instead - not yet.
The one with the buoyancy problems - Bent-Up Tail X-ray - seems to have taken a turn for the worse this morning after a couple of months' plateauing of his condition.
The other - Pop-eyed X-ray - developed an eye injury in July 2018 following some sparring and has largely spent his time resting near the substrate under the wood for the past half year or so. In the past fortnight, his injured eye became very pop-eyed and he looks quite alien-like to the extent that I've spotted him observing himself in the tank reflection. (Blind Tetra's eye started out similarly, went pop-eyed, then seemed to "burst", leaving him with the blindness. eSHa 2000 had not been effective when I tried it a couple of years ago.) For Pop-eyed Tetra, I decided against medication given its previous ineffectiveness, I didn't think such an elderly fish could handle it, and Blind Tetra seemed "reassured" when bumping into his shoalmates to find his way around the tank; now that the latter factor is no longer in the equation, I'm mulling over the medication issue again. [Edited to add: Pop-eyed Tetra photo, front view on (with some plants hanging down in front of him).]
Bendy Harley seems to have been twitching more to the left today.
I was having a look through the dates of the various fishes' deaths - there was a reprieve between a fatal accident behind the filter in July 2016 and the female x-ray with the ulcer in her side in Feb 2018. Let's hope that, following the likely aforementioned 3 (2 likely imminently), there might be a bit of a reprieve for a while again!
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The latest update is that Bendy Harley is deteriorating - twitching to the left and plunging more frequently. The internal part of his left gill seems slightly inflamed if viewed directly from behind (not from the side), whether secondary to whatever the cause of the twitching-to-the-left is or whether only becoming apparent now - but I have been keeping an extremely watchful eye out for anything. Any thoughts from what I've described? Gill flukes? Some sort of parasite? The outlook doesn't seem at all good but I feel I need to intervene to reduce what seems to be some form of irritation/aggravation (although I think he'll succumb whether I treat or not). https:///youtu.be/aeeBW31kzDA
As for Pop-eyed X-ray, I was considering treatment but feel that he could continue to live with this for a bit longer - and I'd be concerned that the very act of medicating an elderly fish might directly cause his demise (a greater likelihood than any potential benefit of treatment).
Has anyone ever medicated elderly fish with success? Harlequin rasbora's 5th birthday would be in May; x-ray tetra was 5 back in Oct.
[Edited to add: Having reviewed the situation since, I'm actually beginning to think that poor Bendy Harley needs a different type of intervention...]
[Edited again to add: Been to LFS - very helpful to chat the whole situation through with them and importantly the context which they totally grasped. Now have a clearer plan which I definitely think is the right one.]
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What’s the plan @fcmf ?
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What’s the plan @fcmf ?
Given their age and condition, the duration of general decline, and unlikelihood of surviving treatment (quite aside from its likely ineffectiveness), the more humane approach under the circumstances would be as was required on 6 March evening. I think this will be required fairly imminently for Bendy Harley, with Bent-Up-Tail X-ray fairly soon after that and then Pop-eyed X-ray some time later (depending on whether gradual decline or sudden further deterioration). I felt somewhat relieved to hear this and consequently realised that it chimed with my gut feeling which I hadn't been aware of.
Updated to add (10 Mar): I set up the hospital tank, not with any intention of medicating, but purely to see if a reduced water level and a very gentle-flow filter might be more comfortable for Bent-Up-Tail X-ray and Bendy Harley respectively. They "volunteered" themselves into the jug so the transfer was easy. It actually transpired that, as Bent-Up-Tail X-ray is not floating like a helium balloon but instead simply rocking jerkily to keep his tail down and maintain himself horizontal, that this made no difference to him. Additionally, it transpired that it made absolutely no difference to Bendy Harley, and my original/recent concerns that the outflow of the main tank's corner filter was too strong and in some way contributing to the harlequins' demise were unfounded - it seems that they had/have simply become too weak to cope with even the gentlest outflow. (The fact that Wee Harley and the young cardinals are not in any way perturbed by the main tank's filter outflow backs up this theory of the outflow being ok - it can be adjusted from 3.33-7.77 turnover per hour and I've tended to have it midway or less.) Therefore, on the basis of my testing, I have since mvoed both fish back into the main tank to be with their tankmates - thankfully, they seemed unfazed by the whole process.
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What a day this has been so far...
Bendy Harley's strange jerking movements to the left continue, flipping onto his side momentarily and intermittently. As there remain periods of respite when he rests reasonably normally near the surface, almost-but-not-quite drinking from the surface, I've been reluctant to intervene in the aforementioned manner. However, when I opened the tank lid, he zoomed onto the top of the flourishing plant and lay there almost as though he was voluntarily giving himself up to be removed. When I shut the lid, he remained there, watching me throughout the stalks/leaves. He seems to have a more adverse reaction when I'm near the tank than when I observe from afar.
Anyhow, I felt like he was willing me to end his potential suffering - as though he was ready for it (but I wasn't). I took some time to pluck up the courage to do so, by which time I saw him acting somewhat more normally again. In a semi-impulsive moment, I decided to try one last option - set up the QT, put him and both x-rays in it, and then added some API Melafix. I completely appreciate that folk don't rate this highly but felt that a mild intervention of some sort would be less invasive than other medication. There has been no adverse reaction on anyone's part and Bendy Harley may even have improved slightly - calmer, resting more, less frequent episodes of moving jerkily and catapulting.
They'd been in that for several hours when I witnessed Bent-Up Tail X-ray take a bite at Bendy Harley's tail followed by two other bites. I knew I had to separate them, and so decided to put that x-ray back in the main tank, leaving Pop-eyed X-ray and Bendy Harley in the QT - one hovers at the bottom, the other at the top.
Dear knows what the rest of the afternoon and evening has in store...
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Hi @fcmf
It makes me feel very uncomfortable reading what is happening to your beloved fish. Even the names such as 'Bendy Harley'and 'Pop-eyed X-ray' give me the Heebie-jeebies!
JPC
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Apologies - edited to incorporate correct links:
A video of him is at https:///youtu.be/aeeBW31kzDA; sometimes he's like that, and, at other times, he's "resting" like at the very start of
https:///youtu.be/WvvQIBleQqA before he falls. (He did look like this more frequently https:///youtu.be/nKO95EzMOTQ last week - this video was taken a mere couple of hours before Blind Tetra at the front of the tank died - but has deteriorated since then). Difficult to judge but, in the main tank, he probably gets spells of about 20 secs of resting, followed by a similar duration of jerkily moving / tumbling, repeatedly. He's doing slightly better in the QT. On this basis, am I being cruel to keep him alive by trying to view the presence of some positive aspects as a reason not to euthanase?
I'm not considering the above yet for Bent-Up-Tail X-ray Tetra https:///youtu.be/D_oe426d0sk (with apologies for TV on in background and scratches on tank from algae magnet) - despite his disability, he was ravenous for chopped pea this evening. Nor am I considering it for Pop-Eyed X-ray Tetra (photo at end of page 4) - although he spends most of his time hovering above the bottom of the tank, to me it seems more of a disfigurement and something that Blind Tetra lived with for a considerable time before he ultimately became blind and more recently lost his buoyancy. Having said that, I acknowledge that either could deteriorate suddenly.
I just don't think I'm "cut out" for this end-of-life side of fishkeeping and decisions like this... Suffice to say that I certainly won't be getting any more fish or pets!!!
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Sorry I haven't been around for a while @fcmf and that your blind tetra has passed.
I don't feel as if I'm in any position to comment on any course of action associated with elderly fish at the moment.
Unfortunately my last female zebra danio passed very quickly over the weekend. She had been heading towards her 5th birthday, and although was a bit curved, seemed to be feeding well, but declined rapidly. She was the last fish of the very first group I bought.
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Aw, very sorry to read about your zebra danio - you mentioned just recently about the emotion connected with losing the last of a shoal and particularly of the very first group, so we're in very similar circumstances and therefore I totally understand how extra difficult that is. :'(
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As an update, both Pop-eyed X-ray and Bendy Harley seem content in the QT, essentially resting. I dosed API Melafix a couple of days ago, then again today - I'm not entirely sure why I'm dosing it as I'm not expecting it to achieve anything much, but it's certainly had no adverse effects, and Bendy Harley in particular seems to be doing better in that tank. Neither seem to have eaten, though, and ultimately Bendy Harley needs to as he's very skinny. I can see this tank becoming a palliative/elderly fish care home... Mr FCMF will be horrified at the thought of a second tank as a long-term feature, though.
Edited to add: 3rd dose API Melafix added 15/03/20 - think I'll leave it at that as not sure Bendy Harley in particular would be able to tolerate more than that. Have been putting Hikari First Bites (food for fish fry) in the tank in the hope that, even if their appetites are suppressed, they may ingest some nutrients.
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Glad to hear that they are comfortable in the QT.
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As a further update, it looks as though the QT is going to become a long-term feature on the table - it seems the best option for Pop-eyed X-ray and Bendy Harley (certainly for Bendy Harley, and Pop-eyed X-ray gives him company and they're getting on well, but Pop-eyed X-ray would probably be equally fine in the main tank). With no visitors for the foreseeable future, this might not be as problematic as it would otherwise be. I may put some substrate in and try to make it a bit more homely for them.
Bent-Up-Tail X-ray is struggling increasingly. Theoretically, I ought to put him in the QT too - but not after his attempts to bite Bendy Harley's tail. At this point, I'm toying with the idea of getting an additional plastic tank and heater specifically for him (I already have a spare filter) but no idea where to put it as no space! @Littlefish - you've infected me with MTS! ;)
Updated 20/03/2020 (early aft'n) to add:
Due to struggling so much, Bent-Up Tail X-ray got moved to the QT as an experiment but, immediately, Bendy Harley starting pushing him (as opposed to v.v.), then both got cascaded around the tank in the (gentle) current. About 5 minutes later, Bent-Up Tail X-ray was floating upside down, unable to battle the current. Mr FCMF and I thought his time was up as he couldn't rectify himself in the jug and his tail almost seemed bent to the extent of being paralysed/broken. Out came the E equipment. However, I thought I'd give him one last opportunity in the main tank and, since then, he's been much more settled - tail is right up at the water surface, and he's learned how to maintain himself upright and just travel around with the current, much more settled than battling to maintain buoyancy.
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Sadly, Bent-Up Tail X-ray has died. He would have died within the next hour without a doubt, but had absolutely no control over his buoyancy or tail and was hanging from the water surface at all angles and struggling, so I intervened to spare him any more suffering (and inquisitiveness on the part of the others which had just progressed from nosiness from a distance to active prodding up close). Two videos being attached, both from only 90 mins ago: one where he was hanging near the water surface and doing ok-ish https:///youtu.be/ZDQhwn-vjc4, and one where he was struggling https:///youtu.be/lUQaasZUyFw - the latter progressed increasingly to become 'permanent', leaving no option when he started hanging, nose down. He had become very dark grey and ragged in the past couple of days too, and his tail was flopping as though broken/paralysed from all the effort to maintain buoyancy.
:'(
A full life, well-lived, Bent-Up Tail X-ray. RIP.
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Sorry to hear this @fcmf but a good life well lived as you say...
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Sorry for your loss @fcmf though bent-up-tail x-ray had a good and comfortable life with you.
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I'm sorry to hear that as well. He had lived a good and long life with you.
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Thanks, all.
The main tank is looking very bare now - just 5 sedate cardinals, Wee Harley and Wee Greenie (the lone neon green rasbora). The quarantine/hospital tank has Bendy Harley and Pop-eyed X-ray in it. If circumstances were different, I'd be adding a shoal of ember tetras (or deep golden gems, as I think @Matt called them) to the gang, but so be it. On a positive note, the main tank is 100% live plants and 0% silk plants!
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Congrats on the live plant success. I fully expect you to be using the quarantine as a holding tank in the not too distant future whilst you aquascape your main tank!!
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Here's a photo. Photos always make the tank seem more sparsely planted and the substrate more prevalent than is actually the case. For now, the plan is to keep the plants alive, hence their positioning (clearly using 'social distancing' principles - maybe I'll name it The Social Distancing Principles of Aquascaping) :rotfl: .
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hiya @fcmf sorry to hear about your we guy. Love to see you plants doing well :)
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I have some unexpectedly good news to report.
As you'll know from this thread, I have two elderly fish in the 'care home' tank - Pop-eyed X-ray (poor quality photo attached from 7 March) and Bendy Harley. This was initially a short-term measure as I didn't expect either to survive - I thought Bendy Harley would succumb imminently and that what seemed like a growth under Pop-eyed X-ray's eye to take over and ultimately cause his demise.
Bendy Harley is still the same (strange jerking-to-the-left swimming technique and then tumbling) but, being in a quieter location with fewer distractions to investigate, he rests in one place for much of the time rather than repeatedly attempting to swim with his strange technique.
Pop-eyed X-ray's eye has improved over the course of the past week, however! Not only is it much less protruding than it was - the eyes weren't parallel, it looked as though there was a growth in his head under the eye, and he kept investigating his own reflection in the glass. He looked like an aquatic alien. So, although the socket is still protruding, the eye itself doesn't look like a large glass balloon about to burst, the eyes are parallel again and more-or-less pointing in the same direction rather than one looking sideways and one looking upwards, and he's stopped investigating his reflection. Whether this improvement will last or improve further, I don't know. The only explanations can be the short (3-day) course of API Melafix I'd dosed on alternate days, a subsequent prophylactic dose of Easylife Voogle, or time - I don't honestly think this would have occurred without one or both of the former two, though.
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As an update:
Pop-eyed X-ray's improvement continued and he was actively exploring his care-home tank and becoming so rejuvenated that I was toying with whether or not to move him back into the main tank to give him extra space, especially as I spotted him spending most of his time watching the main tank with interest. However, I postponed the decision as I was wondering how Bendy Harley would fare on his own without his company as they were both getting on well together and I was also awaiting a reply from PFK who I had contacted about my fish (on Littlefish's suggestion) and over a lingering query about whether my fish might have TB.
As it happens, I had a very helpful reply from Peter Burgess a couple of days ago. In essence, a lot of my elderly fishes' problems could well be simply related to old age but they could be TB which of course older fish will be more susceptible to along with any other health problems due to their weakened immune systems. Only a post-mortem would definitively diagnose TB. A good number of the neon green rasboras died of spinal curvature problems within a year and the cardinal tetra died of dropsy at a young age, each of which could be TB. NB. Not all fish exposed to TB will display symptoms. The filter flow has been discounted as a possibility for the spinal curvature problems, a conclusion I’d come to myself but which was lingering intermittently in the background of my brain.
Since the reply, I’ve done my best to follow his invaluable advice - create a quieter area of the main tank as an option for fish who want more rest from the current (an additional piece of decor has been ordered and is en route to enhance that), have further reduced any potential stress (by using the remainder of the black sand so that the substrate is now much darker), reduced my water change from 50% to 25%, and added black sand and some decor into the hospital tank to make the two tanks as similar as possible as it becomes a permanent home for any afflicted fish. The fish in the main tank seem happy with the darker substrate and slightly refurbished surroundings. We won’t be able to have any visitors as there is now no space for any due to this second tank, but at least current restrictions don’t permit that anyway, and Mr FCMF has not objected to my pleasant surprise, so it’s not difficult.
Sadly, though, Pop-eyed X-ray has deteriorated quite suddenly. I've had plenty of life experience not to get too excited or optimistic over any improvements so I'm simply disappointed rather than shocked. His eye had cleared up for a week or so but then both eyes glazed over a few days ago – the one that had been pop-eyed seemed to glaze over in the same way that Blind Tetra’s did following his pop-eye, and the other one developed a white blob on it. He became very subdued, doesn't seem to be eating, and has been sitting on the substrate against a piece of decor, breathing heavily. His fins have suddenly become very ragged-looking too, and I don’t expect him to survive the weekend. I hope this isn’t some sort of “depressive” reaction to paying undue interest to the main tank but not being moved into it, but, taking everything into account (potential TB, his current state), it’s not a risk I can afford to take and would be too late to attempt successfully at this stage.
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Sorry to hear about pop eyed X-rays deterioration. The potential for TB is intriguing... would this mean that you would need to allow your current fish to all pass and disinfect the tank and everything? I might do a bit of research myself to understand it a bit more...
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My recollection of this disease was right... this probably would be the right course of action.... I won’t recap everything you have probably researched for yourself. There is a very good PFK article if you’ve not read that. Do you think youll do this @fcmf ? Remind me if you have any ‘new’ fish in the tank still - I think you might do but my memory is failing me.
I’m pretty sure you are already using long disposable gloves when cleaning the tank and I would suggest this is a very sensible precaution.
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In the absence of post-mortems, we simply don't know whether it's this or not but some other good points were made in the reply about moving any afflicted fish into the other tank, not restocking the main tank if in doubt about any inhabitants, no guarantee that any new stock were not carrying it, not doing tank maintenance if any cuts/grazes on hands, etc. Thanks for the reminder of the PFK article - I'll dig that out. I think it'd also be wise to wear the gloves, irrespective of presence of cuts/grazes, so thanks for that.
In the main tank, I have the 5 cardinals (6.5 months since purchase), 1 neon green (1.5 years since purchase), 1 harlequin (4 yrs, 10.5 months since purchase). The spare tank has the harlequin that has the strange bendy behaviour and the deteriorated/last x-ray. In the main tank, the neon green has a slight curve/twist in her tail when viewed from above, and one cardinal has been breathing faster than usual for the past week or two. The neon green is quite hyperactive and would never survive the smaller spare tank, and I'm continuing to monitor the cardinal as I know they're particularly keen to stick around as a group so wouldn't want to move unless absolutely necessary.
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Pop-eyed X-ray's right eye in now fully covered in a film, exactly as happened to Blind Tetra. He spends his time sitting on the substrate, breathing rapidly, then occasionally doing a 360' turn on the spot as though to get an idea of what's around him as he tries to get used to suddenly having one semi-functioning eye and complete blindness in the other. I expect he's distressed but, other than give him sufficient hiding places, etc, I don't think there's much else I can do. I think it's a matter of any course of action having fatal consequences - even if I isolated him in a bucket with heater and filter to avoid putting Bendy Harley through unnecessary treatment, I don't think such an old fish would survive a course of eSHa 2000 treatment. Such a disappointment when he looked rejuvenated only a week ago.
Meanwhile, Bendy Harley almost looks like one of those plastic fishes that come out of Christmas crackers and curl up in the hand - but seems like he could go on for months like this, with intermittent seizure-like spasming.
Late afternoon update:
Pop-eyed X-ray's right eye also had a fungus appear out of the top corner and a white dot (possibly fungus) appear on it, both this afternoon. I spent considerable time watching him and contemplating what to do, but also bearing in mind that Blind Tetra had a fungus appear out of his eye a few months ago which resolved itself of its own accord. One option was to use some Aqua-Sed that I have - but haven't yet used for euthanasia purposes - under anaesthetic dose and removing the fungus from the top of his eye with a pair of tweezers. Another option was to dose a tiny amount of eSHa 2000 treatment. In a u-turn from this morning, I felt I had to do something, and there was probably little to lose.
Eventually, I decided that a 20% dose of Day 1 treatment into this care-home tank might be an option ie 1 drop in lieu of the soft-water double dosage of 5 drops.
I dosed this and observed both fish. After less than a minute, likely coincidental, the white dot on Pop-eyed X-ray's eye actually moved position in front of my very eyes. After another 5 minutes or so, coincidental or not, it actually fell off altogether. This left a tiny black dot through which he could possibly see out of instead of the entire eye covered in a film. He immediately perked up and actually swam a circuit of the tank. I tried to net out the white dot but lost it. Now I just have to hope that the piece of fungus in the top corner of the eye also dislodges, hopefully today/overnight, as I'm really not keen to be dosing any more meds to such elderly fish...
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Fingers crossed for your tetra.
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20:15: What a saga! I'm worn-out.
Timings may vary by a minute or so on either side.
20:00-20:02: The fungus is still in Pop-eyed X-ray Tetra's eye but he's sitting upright albeit nestled in the substrate. I decide to check on him once more pre-bedtime to see how he is. Bendy Harley is quite lively at the water surface, all things considered.
20:03-20:05: I interact with the inhabitants of the main tank.
20:06-20:12: I turn round to discover Pop-eyed X-ray completely on his side on the substrate, gasping. Both Mr FCMF and I agree that his time is sadly up, that there's no recuperation from this, that the eSHa 2000 must have been too much for him, but that it was still the correct course of action to give him a chance. I take a deep breath, recognising that this is the end of an era and the shoal of all x-ray tetras. I decide to try the Aqua-Sed rather than Clove Oil option, and prepare the container of tank water with the requisite number of pumps into it.
20:13: I immerse the jug into the tank, in the hope of removing Pop-eyed X-ray to alleviate any prolonged suffering. In swims Bendy Harley, as though volunteering. I gently pour him back in and try again to retrieve Pop-eyed X-ray who has moved. Pop-eyed X-ray is gently swimming round the tank - and the fungus at the top of his eye is gone, possibly dislodged when he was lying on that eye in the substrate.
20:14: Stunned, I decide to leave the euthanasia container to one side in case it's needed later.
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Your fish are determined to hang on.......
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Today, the x-ray tetra spent the first half of the morning continuing to gasp/breathe deeply with his gills fully widened, his silver colouring had a purple hue, and he was alternating between lying tilted at 45’, completely flat on his side and upright, but his swimbladder function seemed to have gone and he was listing from side to side on the couple of occasions that he tried to move. Mid-morning, it was time to spare him any further suffering, and so I used Aqua-Sed at euthanasia dosage (my first experience of this) followed by clove oil just to be certain. RIP Pop-eyed X-ray Tetra and all 6 x-ray tetras. :'(
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I am sorry you had to do this. It is always hard making the decision.
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Thanks, Sue.
For anyone else reading this thread and of the trials and tribulations of fishcare for elderly fish in order to help inform their own decision-making, I think one possibility that I mightn't completely 'write off' in future is that of medicating elderly fish. Generally, expert and LFS and other advice online suggests that the risks outweigh the benefits - medicating elderly fish is unlikely to be successful / would likely 'tip the fish over the edge' as they wouldn't be able to tolerate it. In hindsight, I do wonder if a considerably reduced dosage/course of eSHa 2000 ~5 weeks ago when my x-ray tetra was not so deteriorated as over the past 5 days might actually have been viable after all at the time and cleared the pop-eye. Who knows. However, it is something I might bear in mind for my own future reference.
Some species have fared better than others with medication. It's interesting that the 20% Day 1 dosage has had no perceptible adverse effect on Bendy Harley. On that basis, I think that, if my last-remaining healthy harlequin were to develop something indicative of eSHa 2000 treatment in the future, I might just take my chances and medicate her on this very reduced dosage. (I'm not sure that I've actually treated a harlequin previously with eSHa 2000 - but, if I have, it certainly didn't have an adverse effect, so perhaps they are quite tolerant of such medication.)
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End of an era @fcmf
Sorry to hear about this.
You fish really do reach a ripe old age in your excellent care and this was no different.
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Sorry to hear such sad news @fcmf :'(
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Thanks, both, for your kind words.
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I was really hoping that there might be little reprieve in the care-home tank before Bendy Harley declined further. However, the base of his right pectoral fin turned red overnight - this is a rare case of the photo (flashlight used) actually making the condition look worse than it is. I'm sincerely hoping this is simply a case of overuse of this fin due to compensating for the constant twisting/bending to the left rather than septicaemia setting in. I'll monitor over the next couple of days and, if need be, perhaps put a 20%/1 drop dosage of eSHa 2000 treatment in.
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Fingers crossed for your little fella.
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Thanks, Littlefish. The fin seems to have 75% recovered, to my relief.
I had bought a back-up smaller heater for the QT/hospital tank online recently and had set it up the other day, in the vertical position. On the basis of something I witnessed yesterday, I have a feeling that Bendy Harley may have got caught behind the filter when doing one of his catapulting seizure-like episodes and might have struggled to release himself, hence injuring his pectoral fin base. I've since amended the angle to diagonal and, for some reason, have a feeling he's thereby less likely to have to extricate himself awkwardly.
Edited to update 13/04/20: Fin 100% healed of its own accord; very pleased.
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As an update to this thread:
* Bendy Harley's condition remains the same - stabilised in his isolation tank. He spends the entire day in the "quiet"/current-free corner of the tank, observing the two humans and possibly the main tank. He moves when food is dropped in, looks excited but I've never actually seen him consume it - but he must do at some stage, otherwise he would never have survived this many weeks (unless purely off the Hikari First Bites which float in the water column and would be ingested inadvertently). Although his body is curved, particularly evident when he moves (it's always to the left), it doesn't generally affect him. His seizure-like stiffening into the reverse C shape and plunging/catapulting in the tank, sometimes to the extent of falling onto his side on the tank substrate and then returning to the tank surface on his side or even belly-up, seems entirely related now to being startled rather than also due to falling into or inability to cope with the filter outflow as was the case in the main tank. At night, after the room is in darkness, I have spotted him swimming about as though all is normal and the gentle filter outflow doesn't affect him at all - in fact, both he and Pop-eyed X-ray Tetra (RIP) seemed to liven up and move away from their respective static locations once the room was in darkness. I suspect he may even be swimming down to the bottom during the night and thereby getting food.
* I mentioned in another thread (https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/the-emergency-room/double-emergency-room-sparkling-gourami's/msg48818/?topicseen#new reply #11) that Pop-eyed X-ray's final demise doesn't sit right with me.
I do keep wondering whether the catastrophic demise was in some way a physical manifestation of a psychological / severe stress reaction from not being returned to the main tank when he started to improve (even although I thought best not to in case he had TB) - I'll never know the answer to whether this was a poor decision on my part and will just have to keep working on reconciling this in my mind.
The other issue that still haunts me, and which may be of interest to others, was the Aqua-Sed use. I've read extremely favourable comments about it elsewhere by a couple of folk, about it offering a much gentler 'departure' than clove oil. Unfortunately, this was not my experience. On the handful of occasions I've used clove oil, it has been swift - the fish has stiffened up / ceased swimming within 3-5 seconds. With Aqua-Sed, unfortunately I witnessed Pop-eyed X-ray's head rising up out of the solution, looking as though he was gasping/drowning and attempting to escape. It was difficult to see what happened after that as the solution was milkier than the clove oil / water solution but, on seeing the red tail continuing to swim below the surface, I couldn't bear it - and, in a panic, administered some drops of clove oil directly into the mixture (rather than pre-mixing it with water firstly - I just hope he was at least partially anaesthetised by this stage).
[Articles on the E issue are at https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/fishkeeping-news/painful-fish-deaths-you-might-be-guilty/ and https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/fishkeeping-news/time-to-rethink-anaesthetics/]
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I’m glad to hear that bendy Harley is settled in his new room. I wonder if his brain is still fully responsive but his physical disability stops him from eating it as soon as its dropped in. Eating at night in his mind is safer as he can move at his own pace and not get startled by anything he may see in the light. The static locations you talk about I assume is their safe zone that they feel at most secure. Is it possible to black out all but one side of the isolation tank so that he is perhaps more at ease or secure with more dark than light? From a human perspective I often suffer from Eye strain and migraines etc And a completely quiet, dark still room does wonders for me personally.
I read this E topic on PFK before and is quite daunting as one I’ve never experienced it and two I don’t think I could bring myself to do it due to the fear of introducing further pain or suffering. I did have Aqua-Sed and Clove Oil in my saved amazon basket for a rainy day, I know its better to have it to hand rather than not but I can’t even bring my self to order it for an emergency let alone actually administer it. It’s again as others have mentioned before: always a learning curve even if we don’t want to take it and I am grateful that you shared your experience of pop-eye X-ray (RIP).
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I can definitely see your rationale, although oddly the side he chooses to be in is the window/lightest side (but with least water flow) and actually his plummeting behaviour doesn't seem to be affected by bright lights - he can cope with the TV being on - but more so by people getting up from sitting or sudden movements or something being set down on the table the tank is on. He'll very happily "interact" with my face up close to the tank, talking to him. The more I think of it, the more this fits in with your "vibration" theory (although he's fine with music and voices).
For further security, covering the tank with a dark towel might indeed be a plan. I know that the last remaining harlequin in the main tank seems to look across towards Bendy Harley regularly as though keeping an eye on him - whether or not this is the case or not, I can't be certain, but perhaps I could reposition the tank in such a way that the front is covered but they can see one another through the smaller side and he can interact with me through the other smaller side.
Yes, the E topic is not one to be taken lightly - I'm horrified and disgusted at how lightly and readily some people elsewhere seem to consider it, such as early in the stage of disease or if a fish has a disability. My experience is that fish seem to adapt well to disabilities and my goldfish (RIP) had a near-death experience many years ago but made a complete turnaround and went on to live another few years following that (when others would have euthanased). Ultimately, though, his final demise took 20+ hours from seeming complete death (lying afloat on his side on top of the water for 20+ minutes, no gill movement, etc, interspersed with intermittent 'resurrections' of ~10 seconds, recurringly) to definite complete death; terrible to be in his presence during this but likely far more terrible for him to experience.
Even when the trajectory is clear in what irreversible direction it's heading, I definitely wouldn't agree with it - after all, we're all dying from the minute we're born but sometimes the path to that is swifter due to a specific condition. For me, I only use it when it's clear that the fish has only got minutes or under an hour or so to live and thus which prevents any undue lingering/suffering - and that knowledge comes with experience... usually it's rolling around or writhing on the bottom of the tank floor or, in the case of the elderly fish recently, a slow demise with a clear direction over many months culminating in hanging upside down and inability to maintain buoyancy at all from the tank surface (as distinct from a younger fish who might develop acute but treatable symptoms). Others, though, would have "done the deed" well before that point.
Bendy Harley is a good example of where he looked a "write-off" in the main tank (and likely would have died on his last day in there due to all the catapulting) but has gone on to live a peaceful existence in the isolation tank with the occasional episode per day. I have no idea what the future holds - I wouldn't be surprised to find him dead some morning but equally he could be around in 6 months' time. Wee Harley looks in optimum health but, at their advanced age (5 next month), anything could happen.
As for the actual administering of the E solution, I do find it an ordeal every time - distress and tears are always involved when I realise it's the only option, there's a delay while I gather my thoughts and/or provide an update on here (and hope for some form of divine intervention to turn the situation around), but I do it as respectfully as I can by having silence in the room or calm classical music at very low volume, have a "chat" with the fish to explain what's happening and thank them for their contribution to the tank and more-or-less deliver a eulogy of my memories of them, then talk calmly and reassuringly to them about what I'm doing as I administer the solution (although they can no doubt hear the pain and tears in my voice). This may sound bonkers to anyone reading this but it may be helpful to you as to how it can be done with as much dignity and as close to respectfully as possible if you were ever to consider it.
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I’m no expert on vibrations but perhaps the tv or music provides different sounds/vibrations that are pleasing rather than sudden harsh ones. It seems that they need that social interaction so I’d like to know if you do decide to change the tank around to the smaller sides.
I appreciate you putting delicate detail into your explanation regarding this subject. Our relationship with our pets can be very powerful and just as important than humans.
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Update on Bendy Harley:
Still the same.
I moved a few strands of loose limnophila sessiliflora into his tank to make it a bit more homely / provide some more cover as the plants I had moved in there had died - not unsurprising as they only have natural light rather than a tank light. These strands of plant immediately resulted in a repeat of what happened in the main tank a couple of months ago just before I moved him out - he basically nestled in among it at the water surface, breathing faster than usual, but looking as though he had "given up" and would die shortly. I don't know whether he swims into it, and hasn't the strength/will to dislodge himself (my view) or whether he swims into it for a rest (Mr FCMF's view although he has comparatively sparse knowledge of the tank inhabitants). I feel that, if I leave it in there, he'd die as he'd be taking air in as well as water which would ultimately kill him, and so have removed it.
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Further update on Bendy Harley:
I've been putting the plant in the tank during the daytime when I can keep an eye on him and he's learned to live alongside it - but keep the plant in a jug with tankwater overnight when I can't keep an eye on him to ensure that he doesn't get tangled up in it.
Separately, yesterday, I noticed his tail was looking 'heavier'/paralysed and that he's now more nose-up and his swimbladder seemed to have started to deteriorate. He's also started some episodes of gentle spiralling. I think he's moved into the next stage of deterioration now, and may not make it to his 5th birthday in a fortnight's time. :( In the space of 5 minutes, there were 3 episodes of gentle spiralling - the first two were difficult to watch but I managed to hold the video camera still to take the third episode: https:///youtu.be/CXYLbbpIKdY
Update 5 mins later:
He's completely upside down on the bottom now, gasping. It looks as though he's now at the point of no-return. Mercifully, this has been swift. Frustratingly, though, Furloughed Mr FCMF is having to make a conference call into work, so I can't be in the room - just keeping my fingers crossed that Bendy Harley doesn't slip away to the sound of loud voices rather than the respectful/calm send-off he deserves with me beside him metaphorically holding his fin! [Edited to add: I was beside myself being unable to be beside the tank, so entered the room under the pretext of bringing in a cup of tea; thankfully, Bendy Harley was more upright, so I gave him an encouraging nod (hopefully out of sight of the VC!) and which he acknowledged. At least the bellowing of the VC has reduced so, whatever has since happened, at least it's a more peaceful environment.]
Update 45 mins later:
Mr FCMF came out of the room, to retrieve a cable, and I had no option but to sneak in as discreetly as I could past the VC to check up on B.H. He was upside down on the bottom but intermittently breathing. I couldn't have him lying there with discussions about furlough/£/gov/redundancies in his final moments, so scooped him out in a jugful of water, tucked the E box under my arm, came through to the other room to have him in peace and quiet, and realised I had no option but to Do The Deed as he was upside down and only able to rectify himself intermittently for a few seconds.
I decided to do this in two parts. Again, I'm not convinced about this Aqua-Sed and think in future I'll stick with clove oil only. Suddenly he managed to rectify his position as though attempting to escape out nose first, and swam semi-upright for 15 secs in the A-S solution (rather than the ~3 sec short-and-swift clove oil experience). Although he seemed to be 'gone' after this, I carefully prepared the clove oil, and put it in too as a back-up. There seemed to be a momentary resurrection as he did a couple of circuits of the container, then fell again to the bottom like a stone. The container is now wrapped in a dark towel.
I'm worn out, in part as this relatively sudden demise after 2 months' stability was a bit of a shock, in part because of the E procedure (but felt there was no option), and generally as it feels like the culmination of many months running a palliative care home for elderly fish!
This now leaves me with the main tank containing what I hope is a relatively healthy community (touchwood!) containing one elderly harlequin, one neon green rasbora, five cardinals, two nerites, and some plants that may or may not survive depending on how soon the new LED light takes to arrive.
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Oh @fcmf I'm so sorry to hear about Bendy Harley. :'(
You looked after him very well throughout his life, and I'm glad that the end was peaceful.
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It's always sad when this happens. Thinking of you.
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I’m saddened to read the updates, you have provided the upmost love and care anyone would give their pets. Bendy harlie is in a better place now.
Edit: input missed word.
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Thanks for the kind words, folks. I hadn't quite realised just how fond I had become of him over the past couple of months in particular - it felt a bit strange eating dinner and not having him watch every moment from less than 12" away and interacting with me. :'(
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Phew! Wee Harley has made it to her 5th birthday today (ie since the day I bought her and her shoal), alive and well. :cheers:
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Happy Birthday Wee Harley :cheers:
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Congratulations to you and Wee Harley :cheers:
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Happy birthday Wee Harley. :cheers:
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Thanks, all.
:fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1:
Edited to add: Photo taken a few days later. Unfortunately new lighting doesn't do her the justice the previous lighting did.
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At the risk of jinxing the situation, Wee Harley is livening up, the older she gets. She's been really active lately, her appetite seems to have increased, and she has started foraging in the substrate for leftovers. Glad she's channelling her energy in this direction rather than terrorising the cardinals as she'd been doing for a brief while.
:fishy1: :fishy1: :fishy1:
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Good news :cheers: