Elderly Fish

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Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2020, 01:59:08 PM »
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As an update:

Pop-eyed X-ray's improvement continued and he was actively exploring his care-home tank and becoming so rejuvenated that I was toying with whether or not to move him back into the main tank to give him extra space, especially as I spotted him spending most of his time watching the main tank with interest. However, I postponed the decision as I was wondering how Bendy Harley would fare on his own without his company as they were both getting on well together and I was also awaiting a reply from PFK who I had contacted about my fish (on Littlefish's suggestion) and over a lingering query about whether my fish might have TB.

As it happens, I had a very helpful reply from Peter Burgess a couple of days ago. In essence, a lot of my elderly fishes' problems could well be simply related to old age but they could be TB which of course older fish will be more susceptible to along with any other health problems due to their weakened immune systems. Only a post-mortem would definitively diagnose TB. A good number of the neon green rasboras died of spinal curvature problems within a year and the cardinal tetra died of dropsy at a young age, each of which could be TB. NB. Not all fish exposed to TB will display symptoms. The filter flow has been discounted as a possibility for the spinal curvature problems, a conclusion I’d come to myself but which was lingering intermittently in the background of my brain.

Since the reply, I’ve done my best to follow his invaluable advice - create a quieter area of the main tank as an option for fish who want more rest  from the current (an additional piece of decor has been ordered and is en route to enhance that), have further reduced any potential stress (by using the remainder of the black sand so that the substrate is now much darker), reduced my water change from 50% to 25%, and added black sand and some decor into the hospital tank to make the two tanks as similar as possible as it becomes a permanent home for any afflicted fish. The fish in the main tank seem happy with the darker substrate and slightly refurbished surroundings. We won’t be able to have any visitors as there is now no space for any due to this second tank, but at least current restrictions don’t permit that anyway, and Mr FCMF has not objected to my pleasant surprise, so it’s not difficult.

Sadly, though, Pop-eyed X-ray has deteriorated quite suddenly.  I've had plenty of life experience not to get too excited or optimistic over any improvements so I'm simply disappointed rather than shocked. His eye had cleared up for a week or so but then both eyes glazed over a few days ago – the one that had been pop-eyed seemed to glaze over in the same way that Blind Tetra’s did following his pop-eye, and the other one developed a white blob on it.  He became very subdued, doesn't seem to be eating, and has been sitting on the substrate against a piece of decor, breathing heavily.  His fins have suddenly become very ragged-looking too, and I don’t expect him to survive the weekend.  I hope this isn’t some sort of “depressive” reaction to paying undue interest to the main tank but not being moved into it, but, taking everything into account (potential TB, his current state), it’s not a risk I can afford to take and would be too late to attempt successfully at this stage.


Offline Matt

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2020, 08:43:21 PM »
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Sorry to hear about pop eyed X-rays deterioration. The potential for TB is intriguing... would this mean that you would need to allow your current fish to all pass and disinfect the tank and everything? I might do a bit of research myself to understand it a bit more...

Offline Matt

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2020, 08:51:54 PM »
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My recollection of this disease was right... this probably would be the right course of action.... I won’t recap everything you have probably researched for yourself. There is a very good PFK article if you’ve not read that. Do you think youll do this @fcmf ? Remind me if you have any ‘new’ fish in the tank still - I think you might do but my memory is failing me.

I’m pretty sure you are already using long disposable gloves when cleaning the tank and I would suggest this is a very sensible precaution.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2020, 09:19:59 PM »
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In the absence of post-mortems, we simply don't know whether it's this or not but some other good points were made in the reply about moving any afflicted fish into the other tank, not restocking the main tank if in doubt about any inhabitants, no guarantee that any new stock were not carrying it, not doing tank maintenance if any cuts/grazes on hands, etc. Thanks for the reminder of the PFK article - I'll dig that out.  I think it'd also be wise to wear the gloves, irrespective of presence of cuts/grazes, so thanks for that.

In the main tank, I have the 5 cardinals (6.5 months since purchase), 1 neon green (1.5 years since purchase), 1 harlequin (4 yrs, 10.5 months since purchase). The spare tank has the harlequin that has the strange bendy behaviour and the deteriorated/last x-ray. In the main tank, the neon green has a slight curve/twist in her tail when viewed from above, and one cardinal has been breathing faster than usual for the past week or two. The neon green is quite hyperactive and would never survive the smaller spare tank, and I'm continuing to monitor the cardinal as I know they're particularly keen to stick around as a group so wouldn't want to move unless absolutely necessary.


Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2020, 03:19:38 PM »
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Pop-eyed X-ray's right eye in now fully covered in a film, exactly as happened to Blind Tetra. He spends his time sitting on the substrate, breathing rapidly, then occasionally doing a 360' turn on the spot as though to get an idea of what's around him as he tries to get used to suddenly having one semi-functioning eye and complete blindness in the other. I expect he's distressed but, other than give him sufficient hiding places, etc, I don't think there's much else I can do. I think it's a matter of any course of action having fatal consequences - even if I isolated him in a bucket with heater and filter to avoid putting Bendy Harley through unnecessary treatment, I don't think such an old fish would survive a course of eSHa 2000 treatment. Such a disappointment when he looked rejuvenated only a week ago.

Meanwhile, Bendy Harley almost looks like one of those plastic fishes that come out of Christmas crackers and curl up in the hand - but seems like he could go on for months like this, with intermittent seizure-like spasming.

Late afternoon update:
Pop-eyed X-ray's right eye also had a fungus appear out of the top corner and a white dot (possibly fungus) appear on it, both this afternoon. I spent considerable time watching him and contemplating what to do, but also bearing in mind that Blind Tetra had a fungus appear out of his eye a few months ago which resolved itself of its own accord. One option was to use some Aqua-Sed that I have - but haven't yet used for euthanasia purposes - under anaesthetic dose and removing the fungus from the top of his eye with a pair of tweezers. Another option was to dose a tiny amount of eSHa 2000 treatment. In a u-turn from this morning, I felt I had to do something, and there was probably little to lose.
Eventually, I decided that a 20% dose of Day 1 treatment into this care-home tank might be an option ie 1 drop in lieu of the soft-water double dosage of 5 drops.
I dosed this and observed both fish. After less than a minute, likely coincidental, the white dot on Pop-eyed X-ray's eye actually moved position in front of my very eyes. After another 5 minutes or so, coincidental or not, it actually fell off altogether. This left a tiny black dot through which he could possibly see out of instead of the entire eye covered in a film. He immediately perked up and actually swam a circuit of the tank. I tried to net out the white dot but lost it. Now I just have to hope that the piece of fungus in the top corner of the eye also dislodges, hopefully today/overnight, as I'm really not keen to be dosing any more meds to such elderly fish...

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2020, 07:30:07 PM »
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Fingers crossed for your tetra.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2020, 08:26:51 PM »
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20:15: What a saga! I'm worn-out.

Timings may vary by a minute or so on either side.
20:00-20:02: The fungus is still in Pop-eyed X-ray Tetra's eye but he's sitting upright albeit nestled in the substrate. I decide to check on him once more pre-bedtime to see how he is. Bendy Harley is quite lively at the water surface, all things considered.
20:03-20:05: I interact with the inhabitants of the main tank.
20:06-20:12: I turn round to discover Pop-eyed X-ray completely on his side on the substrate, gasping. Both Mr FCMF and I agree that his time is sadly up, that there's no recuperation from this, that the eSHa 2000 must have been too much for him, but that it was still the correct course of action to give him a chance. I take a deep breath, recognising that this is the end of an era and the shoal of all x-ray tetras. I decide to try the Aqua-Sed rather than Clove Oil option, and prepare the container of tank water with the requisite number of pumps into it.
20:13: I immerse the jug into the tank, in the hope of removing Pop-eyed X-ray to alleviate any prolonged suffering. In swims Bendy Harley, as though volunteering. I gently pour him back in and try again to retrieve Pop-eyed X-ray who has moved. Pop-eyed X-ray is gently swimming round the tank - and the fungus at the top of his eye is gone, possibly dislodged when he was lying on that eye in the substrate.
20:14: Stunned, I decide to leave the euthanasia container to one side in case it's needed later.



Offline Sue

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2020, 08:45:25 PM »
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Your fish are determined to hang on.......

Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2020, 11:59:34 AM »
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Today, the x-ray tetra spent the first half of the morning continuing to gasp/breathe deeply with his gills fully widened, his silver colouring had a purple hue, and he was alternating between lying tilted at 45’, completely flat on his side and upright, but his swimbladder function seemed to have gone and he was listing from side to side on the couple of occasions that he tried to move. Mid-morning, it was time to spare him any further suffering, and so I used Aqua-Sed at euthanasia dosage (my first experience of this) followed by clove oil just to be certain. RIP Pop-eyed X-ray Tetra and all 6 x-ray tetras.  :'(


Offline Sue

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2020, 01:51:31 PM »
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I am sorry you had to do this. It is always hard making the decision.

Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2020, 05:53:07 PM »
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Thanks, Sue.

For anyone else reading this thread and of the trials and tribulations of fishcare for elderly fish in order to help inform their own decision-making, I think one possibility that I mightn't completely 'write off' in future is that of medicating elderly fish. Generally, expert and LFS and other advice online suggests that the risks outweigh the benefits - medicating elderly fish is unlikely to be successful / would likely 'tip the fish over the edge' as they wouldn't be able to tolerate it. In hindsight, I do wonder if a considerably reduced dosage/course of eSHa 2000 ~5 weeks ago when my x-ray tetra was not so deteriorated as over the past 5 days might actually have been viable after all at the time and cleared the pop-eye. Who knows. However, it is something I might bear in mind for my own future reference.
Some species have fared better than others with medication. It's interesting that the 20% Day 1 dosage has had no perceptible adverse effect on Bendy Harley. On that basis, I think that, if my last-remaining healthy harlequin were to develop something indicative of eSHa 2000 treatment in the future, I might just take my chances and medicate her on this very reduced dosage. (I'm not sure that I've actually treated a harlequin previously with eSHa 2000 - but, if I have, it certainly didn't have an adverse effect, so perhaps they are quite tolerant of such medication.)

Offline Matt

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2020, 08:29:54 PM »
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End of an era @fcmf

Sorry to hear about this.

You fish really do reach a ripe old age in your excellent care and this was no different.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2020, 05:44:06 PM »
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Sorry to hear such sad news @fcmf   :'(

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2020, 07:28:25 PM »
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Thanks, both, for your kind words.

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2020, 04:31:12 PM »
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I was really hoping that there might be little reprieve in the care-home tank before Bendy Harley declined further. However, the base of his right pectoral fin turned red overnight - this is a rare case of the photo (flashlight used) actually making the condition look worse than it is. I'm sincerely hoping this is simply a case of overuse of this fin due to compensating for the constant twisting/bending to the left rather than septicaemia setting in. I'll monitor over the next couple of days and, if need be, perhaps put a 20%/1 drop dosage of eSHa 2000 treatment in.


Offline Littlefish

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2020, 06:56:40 PM »
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Fingers crossed for your little fella.

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #76 on: April 12, 2020, 02:04:54 PM »
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Thanks, Littlefish. The fin seems to have 75% recovered, to my relief.

I had bought a back-up smaller heater for the QT/hospital tank online recently and had set it up the other day, in the vertical position. On the basis of something I witnessed yesterday, I have a feeling that Bendy Harley may have got caught behind the filter when doing one of his catapulting seizure-like episodes and might have struggled to release himself, hence injuring his pectoral fin base. I've since amended the angle to diagonal and, for some reason, have a feeling he's thereby less likely to have to extricate himself awkwardly.

Edited to update 13/04/20: Fin 100% healed of its own accord; very pleased.


Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2020, 08:17:16 PM »
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As an update to this thread:

* Bendy Harley's condition remains the same - stabilised in his isolation tank.  He spends the entire day in the "quiet"/current-free corner of the tank, observing the two humans and possibly the main tank.  He moves when food is dropped in, looks excited but I've never actually seen him consume it - but he must do at some stage, otherwise he would never have survived this many weeks (unless purely off the Hikari First Bites which float in the water column and would be ingested inadvertently).  Although his body is curved, particularly evident when he moves (it's always to the left), it doesn't generally affect him.  His seizure-like stiffening into the reverse C shape and plunging/catapulting in the tank, sometimes to the extent of falling onto his side on the tank substrate and then returning to the tank surface on his side or even belly-up, seems entirely related now to being startled rather than also due to falling into or inability to cope with the filter outflow as was the case in the main tank.  At night, after the room is in darkness, I have spotted him swimming about as though all is normal and the gentle filter outflow doesn't affect him at all - in fact, both he and Pop-eyed X-ray Tetra (RIP) seemed to liven up and move away from their respective static locations once the room was in darkness. I suspect he may even be swimming down to the bottom during the night and thereby getting food.

* I mentioned in another thread (https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/the-emergency-room/double-emergency-room-sparkling-gourami's/msg48818/?topicseen#new reply #11) that Pop-eyed X-ray's final demise doesn't sit right with me. 
I do keep wondering whether the catastrophic demise was in some way a physical manifestation of a psychological / severe stress reaction from not being returned to the main tank when he started to improve (even although I thought best not to in case he had TB) - I'll never know the answer to whether this was a poor decision on my part and will just have to keep working on reconciling this in my mind. 
The other issue that still haunts me, and which may be of interest to others, was the Aqua-Sed use.  I've read extremely favourable comments about it elsewhere by a couple of folk, about it offering a much gentler 'departure' than clove oil.  Unfortunately, this was not my experience.  On the handful of occasions I've used clove oil, it has been swift - the fish has stiffened up / ceased swimming within 3-5 seconds.  With Aqua-Sed, unfortunately I witnessed Pop-eyed X-ray's head rising up out of the solution, looking as though he was gasping/drowning and attempting to escape.  It was difficult to see what happened after that as the solution was milkier than the clove oil / water solution but, on seeing the red tail continuing to swim below the surface, I couldn't bear it - and, in a panic, administered some drops of clove oil directly into the mixture (rather than pre-mixing it with water firstly - I just hope he was at least partially anaesthetised by this stage).
[Articles on the E issue are at https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/fishkeeping-news/painful-fish-deaths-you-might-be-guilty/ and https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/fishkeeping-news/time-to-rethink-anaesthetics/]

Offline LeakysLab

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2020, 01:14:30 PM »
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I’m glad to hear that bendy Harley is settled in his new room. I wonder if his brain is still fully responsive but his physical disability stops him from eating it as soon as its dropped in. Eating at night in his mind is safer as he can move at his own pace and not get startled by anything he may see in the light. The static locations you talk about I assume is their safe zone that they feel at most secure. Is it possible to black out all but one side of the isolation tank so that he is perhaps more at ease or secure with more dark than light? From a human perspective I often suffer from Eye strain and migraines etc And a completely quiet, dark still room does wonders for me personally.

I read this E topic on PFK before and is quite daunting as one I’ve never experienced it and two I don’t think I could bring myself to do it due to the fear of introducing further pain or suffering. I did have Aqua-Sed and Clove Oil in my saved amazon basket for a rainy day, I know its better to have it to hand rather than not but I can’t even bring my self to order it for an emergency let alone actually administer it. It’s again as others have mentioned before: always a learning curve even if we don’t want to take it and I am grateful that you shared your experience of pop-eye X-ray (RIP).

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Offline fcmf

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Re: Elderly fish
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2020, 03:02:31 PM »
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I can definitely see your rationale, although oddly the side he chooses to be in is the window/lightest side (but with least water flow) and actually his plummeting behaviour doesn't seem to be affected by bright lights - he can cope with the TV being on - but more so by people getting up from sitting or sudden movements or something being set down on the table the tank is on. He'll very happily "interact" with my face up close to the tank, talking to him. The more I think of it, the more this fits in with your "vibration" theory (although he's fine with music and voices).
For further security, covering the tank with a dark towel might indeed be a plan. I know that the last remaining harlequin in the main tank seems to look across towards Bendy Harley regularly as though keeping an eye on him - whether or not this is the case or not, I can't be certain, but perhaps I could reposition the tank in such a way that the front is covered but they can see one another through the smaller side and he can interact with me through the other smaller side.

Yes, the E topic is not one to be taken lightly - I'm horrified and disgusted at how lightly and readily some people elsewhere seem to consider it, such as early in the stage of disease or if a fish has a disability. My experience is that fish seem to adapt well to disabilities and my goldfish (RIP) had a near-death experience many years ago but made a complete turnaround and went on to live another few years following that (when others would have euthanased). Ultimately, though, his final demise took 20+ hours from seeming complete death (lying afloat on his side on top of the water for 20+ minutes, no gill movement, etc, interspersed with intermittent 'resurrections' of ~10 seconds, recurringly) to definite complete death; terrible to be in his presence during this but likely far more terrible for him to experience.
Even when the trajectory is clear in what irreversible direction it's heading, I definitely wouldn't agree with it - after all, we're all dying from the minute we're born but sometimes the path to that is swifter due to a specific condition. For me, I only use it when it's clear that the fish has only got minutes or under an hour or so to live and thus which prevents any undue lingering/suffering - and that knowledge comes with experience... usually it's rolling around or writhing on the bottom of the tank floor or, in the case of the elderly fish recently, a slow demise with a clear direction over many months culminating in hanging upside down and inability to maintain buoyancy at all from the tank surface (as distinct from a younger fish who might develop acute but treatable symptoms). Others, though, would have "done the deed" well before that point.
Bendy Harley is a good example of where he looked a "write-off" in the main tank (and likely would have died on his last day in there due to all the catapulting) but has gone on to live a peaceful existence in the isolation tank with the occasional episode per day. I have no idea what the future holds - I wouldn't be surprised to find him dead some morning but equally he could be around in 6 months' time. Wee Harley looks in optimum health but, at their advanced age (5 next month), anything could happen.
As for the actual administering of the E solution, I do find it an ordeal every time - distress and tears are always involved when I realise it's the only option, there's a delay while I gather my thoughts and/or provide an update on here (and hope for some form of divine intervention to turn the situation around), but I do it as respectfully as I can by having silence in the room or calm classical music at very low volume, have a "chat" with the fish to explain what's happening and thank them for their contribution to the tank and more-or-less deliver a eulogy of my memories of them, then talk calmly and reassuringly to them about what I'm doing as I administer the solution (although they can no doubt hear the pain and tears in my voice). This may sound bonkers to anyone reading this but it may be helpful to you as to how it can be done with as much dignity and as close to respectfully as possible if you were ever to consider it.





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