Tropical Fish Forum
Tropical Fish Keeping Help and Advice => Fish Health => Topic started by: Smurrayuk on April 24, 2013, 11:12:40 AM
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I am new to the world of fish keeping so would appreciate a little help if anyone can?!
I set up my 35l tank a couple of weeks ago without any fish leaving it for about 4-5 days before adding any, I then bought a Green Tiger Barb, a Red Wag Platy and a Yellowtailed Snakeskin Guppy. All seemed ok, apart from the Guppy who has taken to hassling the Barb by pecking at its pectoral fins. I have been watching its fins, they do not appear damaged and the Barb wasn't particularly bothered by it, I think I just have an annoying little guppy with 'small fish syndrome'.
After about 10 days I did my first clean, since then the Barb seems really unhappy. It didn't eat at all last night, although this morning it obviously got a hungry because it went mad for the food! It has seemed really jumpy as well since the clean, if I go near the tank it will dart all over the place and then hide behind the plants I have growing in the corner.
Can anyone offer any advice? I'm not sure if perhaps the new water I put it is still adjusting, I did about a 25% change. I cleaned my filter in the bucket with the old water. And I added some chemicals to the new water to remove the chlorine and nitrates.
Thanks
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I'm new to fish keeping too myself, this forum and its seasoned members have proved an invaluable resource!
I'm a little concerned by what you're saying - you left the water for 4 - 5 days after adding fish? Tropical fish need something called the nitrogen cycle to be established in order for them to be happy and well, and this can take anywhere between 6 - 8 weeks or more. Fish produce ammonia, which is poisonous to them. Ammonia is converted to nitrite, which again is poisonous to them. Nitrite is eventually converted to nitrate, which is lower levels is all well and good. What you're doing right now appears to be a 'fish in cycle' - however, it sounds like you've only done one water change since you got your fish? Have you got a test kit in order to test Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite and your Ph? Ammonia and nitrite need to be kept at 0 or 0.25 in order for your fish to be happy. Since you haven't cycled your filter, I would imagine you'd need to be doing water changes every day in order to bring the levels in your tank to an acceptable level. Don't panic - it is possible, but you really need to keep this up for the long-term happiness of your fishies! Whenever you add new water it's important that it's treated with a dechlorinator and warmed to roughly the same temperature as the water in the tank.
Here's Sue's article about fish-in cycling:
http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17.0.html
I would imagine some other more experience people will pop by to your thread to advise you more too!
Also a note about your filter - at this stage it is better to leave it well alone for about a month or so, in order for the correct bacteria to grow on it. Also what chemicals are you adding to remove nitrates?
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Thanks for the early reply. When I did the change I added a chemical to remove the chlorine and chloramines and another called 'quick start' which says it removes ammonia and nitrites. I do not have anything to test the water quality, but I'm thinking of taking a sample to my LFS this afternoon to get them to do it ASAP!!!
When you say a water change everyday, how much are we talking? 30% again or less....or more?
The other two fish seem perfectly happy, except the guppy has stopped pestering the barb!?!
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Everything Jesnon said is correct.... you need a test kit a.s.a.p.
Tiger barbs are shoaling species and need a) at least 6, and better 10 to be happy, and b) a tank that's at least 60cm long as they're active fish. It's no wonder yours is so unhappy.
At the top bar of the page is a tab 'information' and in there is 'knowledge' - please start reading the articles and we'll do everything possible to help you.
I would suggest taking your Tiger Barb back to the shop and explaining what's happened.... it will only be miserable in your set-up.
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Is it Tetra Safe Start? A few of us have had some success building up the right bacteria with that or helping speed things up, but it's not always a guarantee. Worth a try though! I think the water changes depend on the level of ammonia and nitrite you have. The higher the level, the more water you have to change. If it's really high you could need to do up to a 90% water change. After you've done the water change you need to test the water again after about 30 minutes when it's all mixed round to check it's down to the required level safe for your fish.
Basically the best thing you can do right now is head out to your LFS and buy an API test kit (normally they're cheaper online, but I think it's worth spending the extra money to get it right now!). Test your water as soon as you've got it - if either ammonia or nitrite are above 0.25, do a water change to bring it down.
After that read as much as you can about fish-in cycling, the nitrogen cycle and your fish and you'll feel a bit better. It's all very over-whelming at first, so the more you read the more sense it makes and the easier life is!
I'd also recommend setting your tank measurements up on the Community Creator here (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/article/community-creator.html) and working out what fish you want eventually and if there are any problems. It looks like Colin has found a problem with your tiger barbs so any other issues like that you can sort out before you get too attached to the idea of certain fish. Guppies are also a little notorious for being sickly fish, so it might be better to swap him for the time being for more hardy fish who will handle the fish-in cycle better. I know it's not ideal but might be better in the long run.
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Thanks for all the info, I'm working a late shift this evening. I'm able to get out and a out at work though so I'll take a sample of water to work with me. I'll speak to them there about returning the fish and exchanging it for another species.
I'm lucky to have 5-6 LFS where I live so I'll shop around a bit if I have any problems with this one. When I first went in the seemed pretty good, they advised against neon tetras saying they are not as hardy as they used to be and that these were tough little things. They also said to leave the tank with this three for a couple of weeks then bring in a sample of water to check before they'll sell me any more to me, which I thought was responsible as they could have told me to keep adding to make money out of me....although I know not to do that!!
I'll update you when I done this. Thanks again.
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Perfect advice here.
Please see if you can get that Tiger Barb back - with an API test kit we can get you through a fish-in cycle as long as you keep us well informed as to your test results.
I've kept a Platy and two Guppies quite happily in my 25litre isolation tank for a couple of months so it is possible with care and patience.
If you really want Tiger Barbs then wait until you've learnt about keeping fish that thrive in your water, and then get a suitable sized tank and you'll have a lovely display - Tiger Barbs are great fish. Here's the ThinkFish link to Tiger Barbs... Clickety Click (http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish/tiger-barb.html).
....and sorry to go on a bit, but after you've taken your barb back and got an API test kit.... then see if you can find another Local Fish Shop (LFS) as any shop that lets you out of the door with that combination of fish without asking you some serious, searching questions is not to be trusted. Just a thought.
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Ah - you replied as I did. Good ideas - but don't get another fish, it will only add to your 'bioload' and make it more difficult to cycle the tank. Get a credit note or money off the API kit - or just give it back and take the hit. They really shouldn't have let you take those fish knowing the size of your tank and that it was un-cycled. Totally irresponsible of them.
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Just spoke to them on the phone, spoke to a different member of staff this time. She said it was not a good combination of fish, she suggested initially testing the water with them and also removing the guppy and add another barb or two? I'm thinking if anything the other way around and avoiding barbs?!
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Yep - avoid Tiger Barbs in that sized tank. Stick with the Platy and Guppy for now and don't add anymore fish until the tank is cycled.
I've just used the Community Creator with your tank and stock (I assumed a length of 30cm and an actual water volume of 30litres, plus an internal filter) and you're 23% stocked without the Tiger Barb. You should be able to get through a fish-in cycle with that, though guppies can be a bit fragile.
Adding a Tiger Barb raises that to 40% (far too much for a fish-in cycle) and throws up a number of warnings about tank size, the need for them to be in shoals, and that they're nippy and likely to take chunks out of your guppies tail fin.
Afterwards (say two months) you could perhaps add three cherry barbs (1m:2f), they're really interesting fish and tough little things and will be fine in that sized tank.
Hope this helps - keep letting us know how you're getting on - we love to help.
We also love pictures! Of the tank - not you ;D
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Tiger barbs are shoaling fish that live in groups of thousands in the wild. When there aren't enough of them their instincts tell them that the reason there are so few is that something has eaten all the others so they'd better be on constant look out for the predator - and this is very stressful for a fish.
Tiger barbs are also one of the nippiest fish you can buy. In their huge shoals they have a heirarchy and the pecking order is maintained by the upper members nipping the lower ones. When there aren't enough of them, they start to include other species in the heirarchy and nip them as well. This is why tiger barbs need to be kept in greater numbers than the usual 6 recommended for shoaling species, and why their tank mates should be chosen with care.
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Water test done; ammonia levels ok but the nitrite was too high. They recommended remove the barb altogether, cut the feeding down to once a day, do another water change and add some more nitrite remover.
They said to leave it with two fish for 2-3 more weeks and come back.
They have also apologised for the poor advice and being sold the barb. Just got to get rid of the snails I've just found now!!!
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Can you give us the levels?
The only OK reading for Ammonia is 0ppm and it must be kept below 0.25ppm, and your only going to get Nitrites if you have the Ammonia eating bacteria to convert Ammonia to Nitrites. Do a water change to bring the Nitrites down to below 0.25ppm.... you can't remove all the Nitrites otherwise the Nitrite eating bacteria will never get established and your tank will never cycle properly, so Nitrite remover is another poor recommendation. Then only go back when the tank is fully cycled plus two or three weeks, not two or three from now. (...and preferably to a different LFS!)
Did you get a test kit?
Will they take the barb back? Otherwise 'remove the barb altogether' has a very sinister meaning! :o
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Didn't get the levels. I have bought a testing kits myself though, so I'll do some testing later.
Thankfully they will take the barb back, I'll be doing that tomorrow first thing!!
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Didn't get the levels. I have bought a testing kits myself though, so I'll do some testing later.
Thankfully they will take the barb back, I'll be doing that tomorrow first thing!!
Excellent news!
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A few water changes later and here are some results:-
NO3 - 50
NO2 - 0
GH - 16
KH - 6
pH - 7.6-8
CL2 - 0
It looks like nitrate is high, so should I be doing another water change or just add some more 'quick start', which helps dissolve the nitrate?
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Those results look like they are from a strip rather than liquid testers - there's no ammonia but there is a result for chlorine. If it is a strip, I would not take the readings too seriously as strips are notorious for being inaccurate. You really do need an ammonia tester as well, as that is usually the first thing to cause problems.
What is the nitrate level in your tapwater? The UK allows up to 50ppm, that is a possible source of most of your nitrate. When your tapwater has high nitrate, water changes will not get it any lower than the tap level.
Quick Start does nothing for nitrate levels. It is one of those products that claim to add ammonia- and nitrite-eating bacteria. In fact if it does work it will cause higher levels of nitrate as that is what the bacteria make.
If the reading can be believed, your nitrite is fine, but you don't know yoyour ammonia level, which may or may not be OK.
Check the nitrate level in your tapwater. If it is 30 or above, your tank nitrate is OK. The general aim is to stop the tankwater nitrate getting more than 20 above the level in your tapwater.
But if your tap nitrate is a lot lower then 30, yes you do need to do a water change.
Most fish are OK in nitrates up to 100. There are a few nitrate-sensitive fish, but you don't have any.
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Straight from the tap are as follows:-
NO3 - 25
NO2 - 0
GH - 16
KH - 15
pH - 7.2-7.6
CL2 - 0.8
I'll have to get some ammonia testing kits.
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That variation in KH shows how vague the test strips are.... you'd be far better off with an API Master Test Kit which tests for pH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate. I started off with strips and very soon bought one of these kits.
(http://thereefshop.com.au/images/API%20Freshmaster.png)
With your pH, KH, GH and Nitrate figures looking a lot like mine I would hazard a guess thet you live in Southern Central England or the South East. My water figures (after standing overnight... the water - not me!) are pH 7.4, GH 16o and KH 12o, with 25ppm Nitrates, and I live in Buckinghamshire.
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So your tank nitrate is about 25 higher than the tap nitrate. In that case yes, a water change would help. How often do you clean the tank, how much water do you take out (roughly, a fifth, half etc?) and do you clean the gravel, if that's what's on the bottom, at the same time?
There are a few causes of a too-high nitrate. Too many fish for the tank size; feeding too much; not cleaning any left over food out of the gravel; not doing frequent enough water changes; not doing big enough water changes.
And don't worry about the difference in pH. Freshly run tapwater usually has a different pH from tank water or tapwater that's stood for 24 hours. A lot of water cpmanies add carbon dioxide to the water to help prevent limescale deposits in the mains pipes. This makes the water slightly acid, but it gasses out when the tapwater stands so the pH rises slightly.
Colin- if the nitrate is high, could that be reducing the KH so much? I'm very aware of what acids (nitrite, nitrate) can do after the pH crash when I was cycling.
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I wouldn't have thought so. My first thought is the test strip inaccuracy. Acids are H+ ions which will react with the Carbonates of the KH; i.e. the KH 'mops-up' the H+ ions and the KH will drop as the carbonates are used up, but the pH will remain constant..... untill you run out of Carbonates then the excess H+ will now make the water more acidic.
Nitrates are not acids and won't cause acidity, but what may be happening is the same process that's caused the KH to drop has also caused the Nitrates to rise, though what that may be I can't say. As 'they' say, correlation does not mean causality.
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Nitrates are nitric acid in solution and will make the water acid (and nitrites are nitrous acid). That's what happened during my fishless cycle, though admittedly I did start with a lower KH than in this case.
Any solution of nitrate in water will have both NO3- and H+ ions, which can be regarded as nitric acid. Carbonate raises pH because carbonic acid is a weak acid; that is, it dissociates in water to a much smaller degree than a strong acid like nitric. A high concentration of H+ in the water pushes the equilibrium over toward carbonic acid, and H+ is removed from the water, raising the pH
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ah-ha.... I see the problem. As a scientist Nitrates are not acids..... however, as a fish keeper then the ammonia eating bacteria oxidise the ammonia and ammonium ( NH3 and NH4+ ) into Nitrate ( NO3- ) by stripping the Hydrogen off the ammonia , and using the Oxygen dissolved in the water to oxidise the Nitrogen. This leaves behind a lot of H+ ions which acidify the water.
So the oxidation of ammonia into Nitrates by bacteria has the same effect as if you'd added Nitric Acid ( HNO3 ) to the water, you get H+ and NO3- ions in solution. Or that's my take on it.
Wow - I'm getting to learn a lot from these discussions. :)
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Actually, what I wrote above about carbonates is quite likely rubbish :-[ I just realised what I wrote while making the beds. It would be true of other weak acids, but
CO32- + 2H+ -> H2O + CO2
or in other words, a carbonate plus acid in the presence of water gives water and carbon dioxide. That's how the carbonate (and bicarbonate) ie KH is used up.
This is why you find bicarbonate of soda in the home baking section. It is mixed with an acid such as tartaric acid in both baking powder and self raising flour. As soon as moisture in the form of eggs and/or milk is added to a cake mixture, the bicarb and acid react creating bubbles of carbon dioxide. The cake mixture is then heated, setting the mixture and trapping the bubbles. It is why cake mixture should be put in the oven asap or the resulting cake will be flat.
As for the pH drop when nitrate is formed - biological entities are at work here. It is not likely to be a nice plain chemical reaction. Biological entities use enzymes and all sorts of intermediates to carry out reactions that are not easy to do in a test tube. this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle) is how we convert sugar into carbon dioxide, water and energy. Not exactly a straight forward a -> b reaction. It would not surprise me if it turns out that the bacteria do all sorts of complicted things to turn ammonia into nitrite then into nitrate, and there would likely be all sorts of other rections going on inside the bacterial cells as well, the products of which could well end up outside the cell in the water.
Whatever actually happens, the direct result of the nitrogen cycle is nitrate in the water and a lot more hydrogen ions - ie a lower pH.
I would have preferred to study biochemistry rather than chemistry but I had a major disadvantage - I just couldn't memorise all those metabolic pathways. So my degree is in chemistry with biochemistry as my auxilliary subject. At the uni I went to back in the 1970s, we studied 3 subjects in the first year, then decided on the degree subject after the first year exams, studying 2 subjects in a 2:1 ratio in the second year and just one subject in the third year. I did chemistry, biochemistry and zoology; chemistry and biochemistry; chemistry. My husband did chemistry, physics and maths; chemistry and physics; chemistry. Yes, we did meet at uni ;D
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CO32- + 2H+ -> H2O + CO2
or in other words, a carbonate plus acid in the presence of water gives water and carbon dioxide. That's how the carbonate (and bicarbonate) ie KH is used up.
Yep - that's why you use KH and pH to determine the CO2 concentration in your water.
(http://www.petfish.net/pix/arts2/ph_kh_co2.gif)
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My CSE in chemistry just isn't up to all this stuff. It was 40 years ago! I started out keeping fish, I didn't want to become a chemist or a lighting technician or a photographer or an electrician or a structural engineer or a gardener or a web designer or ............
I just want to keep fish!
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Colin/Sue - it's like a different language... I would like to say i understood everything you both wrote, but i didn't (not even the 2nd time round)
Which is why my BSc is in social science - now if you want an explanation on how Operant Conditioning effects the behaviour of your fish, i'm your man. :D
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Haha yes I'm with water watcher as a Psychology BSc myself ha
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So your tank nitrate is about 25 higher than the tap nitrate. In that case yes, a water change would help. How often do you clean the tank, how much water do you take out (roughly, a fifth, half etc?) and do you clean the gravel, if that's what's on the bottom, at the same time?
There are a few causes of a too-high nitrate. Too many fish for the tank size; feeding too much; not cleaning any left over food out of the gravel; not doing frequent enough water changes; not doing big enough water changes.
And don't worry about the difference in pH. Freshly run tapwater usually has a different pH from tank water or tapwater that's stood for 24 hours. A lot of water cpmanies add carbon dioxide to the water to help prevent limescale deposits in the mains pipes. This makes the water slightly acid, but it gasses out when the tapwater stands so the pH rises slightly.
I'm glad my topic is raising such interesting conversations, unfortunately I've understood none of it!! I'm a BA man myself, so I'm completely lost.
Anyway to answer Sue's question above, I clean about 20% of the water using a syphon to pick up the gravel and I'm doing a water change every 2-3 days. I've been leaving the filter though, unless there's any obvious plant leaves stuck in it then I'll pick them out.
My two remaining fish do seem quite happy at the moment, so hopefully the water levels are stabilising.
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That's good news.... but I do stress the importance of being able to test for ammonia at this stage in your fishes life as this will determine how much water you need to change to keep the level below 0.25ppm. Above this level then it can start to damage their gills which will stress them and make them more prone to disease.
Us BSc's will always stick together!! ;D
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Us BSc's will always stick together!! ;D
In our house you don't have much choice ;D I have a BSc in chemistry, husband has a PhD and younger son has an MChem and is currently doing research for a PhD. Older son did study chemistry for 1 year 2 terms before deciding it wasn't what he wanted to do.
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Water checked at the fish shop all levels seem ok. Another member of staff suggested that's perhaps I had two males and one female, which may have caused the problem. I have a male red wag barb, not sure about the guppy. When I get some more fish ill make sure it's female though to balance it out.
The though has spent a lot of today sitting on top of the filter which is also right next to the heater, it's not gulping air or anything. It's just sat there!!
Any suggestions?
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Above should say:
The guppy though......
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It must be female - like my better half and always cold...
Sorry, no idea
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Water checked at the fish shop all levels seem ok.
Another member of staff suggested that's perhaps I had two males and one female, which may have caused the problem. I have a male red wag barb, not sure about the guppy. When I get some more fish ill make sure it's female though to balance it out.
The though has spent a lot of today sitting on top of the filter which is also right next to the heater, it's not gulping air or anything. It's just sat there!!
Any suggestions?
Do you have the actual value for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate? This is a fish shop that has given you lots of bad advice and what their view of 'OK' levels are may not be my view of what OK levels are.
It's the easiest thing in the fishy world to sex a guppy (and platy), males have gonopodia while females have an anal fin:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4XWreR8_pD8onvHletQ9j2j_9E8AZDuIZ7wXhihsqzQSYDgtKkA)
MALE GUPPY:
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSUztEUPwPb8JMYv_ogefrjza73RD7B1pvVPcN4e-FbnDEB3Tj8RQ)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3lNcVb6c4l3K_fPJVOEY-DYIV9LZmniSUkN8wyyUetqBK0mM3)
I'm afraid that sitting in one place a lot during the day is never a good sign with guppies. That's the sort of behaviour mine exhibited before turning up their little fishy toes. I've found that now my two tanks have aged and matured (i.e. got a load of micro-organism colonies that take six months or so to grow) that my guppies have stopped getting ill and settled down to living a nice guppy life. Guppies seem to be too fragile to cope with a new tank, even if it's been fishless cycled, and I think your tank is still cycling so they're going to have a hard time.
My remaining guppies are all males, two in each tank, because I don't want to be over-run with baby guppies.
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To continue from Colin's post -
Oncce you have identified the sex of your platies and guppies, you need at least two females for every male. Livebearer males will chase females constantly. You need more females than males so that each female gets time out while the males chase other females.
And male platies will chase female guppies, and vice versa.
If you have all males or all females that's fine. It's just if you choose to have mixed sexes that you need at least twice as a mny females as males. Three times more is even better.
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Thanks for the pictures Colin, I definitely have a male guppy and a male platy at the moment. I think the one I took back may have been female then because the guppy kept on pestering it.
The guppy today has been moving about a bit more, it's not sat on top of the filter anymore. He has moved and sat on top of the little bridge I've got and underneath it. (I've got a hiding log on order which should be a little better than the bridge for them).
Am I best to try another water change if the ammonia levels are high? Then I'll need to get myself an ammonia testing kit.
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Bought an ammonia testing kit and some more activated carbon filter. I've heard when I change the filter to cut it in half and only change half at a time. Is that right?
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Here's a quote....
In summary carbon is an unnecessary and even harmful media that does not need to be used in the aquarium except for short-term applications such as removing medications. When choosing a filter pick one with customizable media that do not require you to use carbon. Avoid those that provide hybrid cartridges that include carbon built in to mechanical media. When using customizable filters use more biological media in place of the carbon.
Filter manufacturers like you to use carbon so you keep replacing it and giving them more cash.... don't fall for it! ;D
I can't remember what size tank you have, but I think it was on the small size so I would advise you not to get any more male platies. I had two in my 55litre tank and one would kick hell out of the other to the extent that I bought an isolation tank to split them up. One male on his own would 'play nicely' with the male guppies.
On the other hand.... I've got two tanks now!! ;)
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(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3lNcVb6c4l3K_fPJVOEY-DYIV9LZmniSUkN8wyyUetqBK0mM3)
This image has 5 and 6 the wrong way round I'm afraid. The fins nearest the gills are the pectoral fins, the fins a little further back are the Pelvic or Ventral fins.
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Argh!!!!! White spots on the guppy, that'll be the problem!!! I'm on my way to the LFS now to get some treatment!!
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This image has 5 and 6 the wrong way round I'm afraid. The fins nearest the gills are the pectoral fins, the fins a little further back are the Pelvic or Ventral fins.
Hiya Steve ... so it is. I didn't look at those bits, I was concentrating on the naughty bits. You know what those sex-ed lessons were like! ;D ;D
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Argh!!!!! White spots on the guppy, that'll be the problem!!! I'm on my way to the LFS now to get some treatment!!
That could well be making the fish off-colour.
Because of the nature of the whitespot parasite you'll need to follow the instructions on the bottle to the letter. The parasite has three stages to its lifecycle and it can only be killed in one of them. The first stage is attached to the fish where it eats the fish's tissues - this is what we see as the spots. They have a coating round them so the medication can't get to them. When they've eaten enough, they fall off - stage 2. They sit on the bottom of the tank inside the coating and multiply - and again, the med can't get to them. Stage 3 is when the cysts split open and the tiny parasites go looking for a fish to infect. This free swimming stage is the only one where it can be killed. When a tank has whitespot there will be parasites in all three stages, and there must be some med still in the water when every last one gets to stage 3.
Turning the heater up to ~30oC will make the parasite go through its lifecycle faster so it will be killed faster
That nice new carbon you've just bought - have you put it in the tank yet? I ask because it will remove the medication so if you've put some in, you'll need to take it back out before treating. If you haven't used it yet save it till the whitespot has gone and use it to remove the medication.
What exactly do you have in your filter? I assume you have carbon as you've just bought more, but what else is in there? Sponge? Ceramics?
The only problem you may have is if you find ammonia when you test as you will need to do water changes. If there is ammonia, you'll need to do as big a water change as necessary to dilute it to virtually zero - certainly to well below 0.25. And the same for nitrite if you get a reading for that.
The way to do the water changes while also treating for whitespot:
- do a big water change and gravel clean before adding the first dose. That will remove a lot of the cysts (stage 2) off the bottom of the tank.
- most whitespot med are dosed on certain days with gaps between. If it's a dosing day, do the water change then add the full dose
- if it's not a dosing day, do a water change and add the amount of medication for the volume of new water only
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I've had a carbon filter in since the beginning, I have just bought some more filter though. It's blue this time, whatever that is. I've cut the carbon filter in half and replaced it with the blue so it's 50/50 now, will that work or will I need to replace the whole lot?
The whitespot med I've bought is eSHa EXIT Whitespot treatment, it's to be added over three days. Reading the info leaflet it tells me to add 6-7 drops on day one and then 3 drops on days two and three. It says do a water change prior to adding the med, which I did a couple of days ago so I've not done one again. The info leaflet says you should see an improvement after 1-2 days. The LFS said it should be gone after 9-14 days.
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So your filter just had carbon :o
What make is it, I'll see if I can find the manual.
I despair of some filters being made nowadays. I just can't understand why they have media that has to be replaced, throwing away all the bacteria every time. Such filters can never be cycled without some drastic changes to the media.
Make sure you turn the temperature up as well as adding the medicaition. Sometimes the dosing regime is too short if you leave the temp at 25-ish. It needs to be around 30 to speed up the whitespot's lifecycle. As it's only temporary the fish will be OK. But make sure the filter outflow is rippling the surface well. The warmer the water the less oxygen it can hold, and in addition, some meds remove oxygen so you need to make sure plenty is getting into the water.
The problem with whitespot is that even though it has gone from the fish, it won't all be dead yet. Keep on treating even if there are no spots left on the fish.
If you see ammonia or nitrite when you test (which you should be doing twice a day) you'll have to do a water change to get them down well below 0.25. Do it just before you add the med.
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My filter is : Hidom Submersible Internal Aquarium Filter & Spray Bar Marine Tropical Fish Tank
It comes with a single filter which is the carbon filter which I would describe as being about the size of a fun size mars bar! I have the spray bar quite high up so it drops the water with some force causing a lot of bubbles right down at the bottom of the tank and hopefully leaving the water well oxygenated......when my fish were healthy they used to line up to swim through the bubbles! I now have a mix of filter sponge inside the filter, which I am hoping will improve the filtration.
The first stage of med has gone in, I'm glad to hear is only temporary as the platy is starting to slow down a bit now. Hopefully I've caught it in the nick of time and it'll clear up.
I've put the temperature up to 28 but I'll put it up some more.
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Well in the time it's taken me to the write the last post we've had a fatality!!! My little ASBO guppy has been found at the bottom of the tank upside down. I tried moving him about in the net a little but he's definitely a goner!! (I hope so anyway cos he's down the toilet now)
Fingers crossed for the platy now, hope he makes it through the next few days.
I've got to break the news to my three year old daughter in the morning!
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Sorry to hear about your guppy.
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Sorry to hear about the guppy. It sounds as though there were more problems than just the whitespot. A lot of experienced fishkeepers will not keep guppies because of them dying, an all too common problem nowadays. Yours could well have been one of these weaker fish.
If one fish had whitespot, the whole tank is infected so you need to continue the treatment. The half of the old carbon filter still in the filter, in theory, will remove the med but in pratice if it's been there more than a couple of weeks it should be 'full' and not remove any med.
Because all you have in the filter is half the old carbon filter and half a new sponge, you need to be very careful about what you do next. The remains of the carbon media will contain half the bacteria you had. But you now only have half the fish you had, so that should be enough bacteria. Don't touch the remaining part of the carbon media. You need to wait until you've grown some bacteria in the new sponge before you touch the carbon. That will take at least 4 weeks, maybe six.
Leave the filter alone (apart from a light clean in old tank water that you take out during a water change). In a couple of months, take out the last bit of carbon media and put more sponge in its place. Then you'll have just 2 bits of sponge, which is good.
Forget what I said about using some new carbon to get rid of the med when the treatment is over - that's only for when you have some other mature media in the filter which you don't have. You can remove the med by doing more water changes - you'll be doing those anyway if you find any ammonia or nitrite in the water.
I've googled your filter but the manufacturer's website doesn't appear to have the manuals. (Some do have manuals available as downloads, which is very useful for someone like me to find out about other people's filters ;D )
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Well the platy has certainly plucked up this morning. I'm not sure whether its because of the ASBO guppy going or the whitespot treatment taking effect, or maybe it's because of the increase in temperature. Last night and early this morning he was very quite but now he's more like an annoying child with ADHD whose eaten one too many E numbers!!!
No signs of whitespot on him, I've got two more days of meds to add to the tank and then I was going to leave it until the middle of next week before I do a water change again. Does this sound about right?
Thanks for the info about the carbon filter. Should I eventually leave carbon out altogether and only use it when/if I need to clear meds out of the water in the future? I'll obviously leave it there for the time being as you mentioned Sue.
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Good to hear about the platy.
You don't actually need carbon in a filter full time. I haven't used any for years, not since I discovered I don't need it. So once the new bit of sponge has grown some bacteria, in a couple of months replace the last bit of carbon with more sponge. Sponge only needs changing when it literally falls apart.
I have a very small cheap filter that spends most of its time in the cupboard. I put a bag of carbon in it if I ever need to use it rather than try to squash the carbon in my main filter :D
Keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrite now that you've taken half the old filter media out. If you see either of them, do a water change. If you don't, yes leave it till the middle of next week. Once you are sure the whitespot is gone (no sign of spots on the platy for a week) then do a big water change - at least 50%, then daily 20% water changes for a week. That will remove the vast majority of the med. Then go back to weekly maintenance water changes. Don't forget to turn the heater back down as well ;D
Something I should have mentioned before - don't replace the guppy just yet. Wait until you are absolutely sure the whitespot is gone and you've done the water changes to remove the med. The things involved with getting new fish (catching them in the shop tank, being in a bag, being put into different water etc) are stressful enough for a fish without being put into water with medication in and that's a lot warmer than it's used to.
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This may be hi-jacking a little bit but it is sort of relevant.
I use 2 internal filters in every tank. This is a redundancy feature as i have had issues in the past with pumps breaking, or needing to add carbon etc. The 2 pumps always over-size so if i want to i can have additional fish. It also means i can add carbon to one filter if i need to take meds out or change the sponge in one filter with little effect to the tank.
Plus if i ever get a new tank i can take the sponge out of a filter and add it to the new system, it makes cycling easier.
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Water levels checked again all seems ok. Ammonia is at 0, nitrate is 25, nitrite is 0 and all the others are as before.
Platy is doing ok, no white spots. I've added the last dosage of meds today, so i'll give it until next week then I'll do a water change/clean. I've also put the new carbon I bought into a spare filter I have. Should I use this filter to help remove the rest of the meds after I do a water change next week?
Eventually I shall just use bio-filter as the normal filter and then my spare filter with the carbon to remove any impurities I may have to add in the future.
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That all sounds good. The 25ppm Nitrate.... is that from your tap water? I know that in my area (South Bucks) then Thames Water kindly supplies us with water at 25ppm Nitrates. It might be worth testing your tap water then you know what's being added by your tank. Just a thought.
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Good stuff. Sorry to hear about your guppy.
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Yes it's the tap water. I've checked that before.