A Sad Little Green Tiger Barb

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Offline ColinB

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2013, 02:39:28 PM »
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I wouldn't have thought so. My first thought is the test strip inaccuracy. Acids are H+ ions which will react with the Carbonates of the KH; i.e. the KH 'mops-up' the H+ ions and the KH will drop as the carbonates are used up, but the pH will remain constant..... untill you run out of Carbonates then the excess H+ will now make the water more acidic.

Nitrates are not acids and won't cause acidity, but what may be happening is the same process that's caused the KH to drop has also caused the Nitrates to rise, though what that may be I can't say. As 'they' say, correlation does not mean causality.

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Offline Sue

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2013, 03:14:48 PM »
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Nitrates are nitric acid in solution and will make the water acid (and nitrites are nitrous acid). That's what happened during my fishless cycle, though admittedly I did start with a lower KH than in this case.

Any solution of nitrate in water will have both NO3- and H+ ions, which can be regarded as nitric acid. Carbonate raises pH because carbonic acid is a weak acid; that is, it dissociates in water to a much smaller degree than a strong acid like nitric. A high concentration of H+ in the water pushes the equilibrium over toward carbonic acid, and H+ is removed from the water, raising the pH

Offline ColinB

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2013, 03:40:00 PM »
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ah-ha.... I see the problem. As a scientist Nitrates are not acids..... however, as a fish keeper then the ammonia eating bacteria oxidise the ammonia and ammonium ( NH3 and NH4+ ) into Nitrate ( NO3- ) by stripping the Hydrogen off the ammonia , and using the Oxygen dissolved in the water to oxidise the Nitrogen. This leaves behind a lot of H+ ions which acidify the water.

So the oxidation of ammonia into Nitrates by bacteria has the same effect as if you'd added Nitric Acid ( HNO3 ) to the water, you get H+ and NO3- ions in solution. Or that's my take on it.

Wow - I'm getting to learn a lot from these discussions. :)

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Offline Sue

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2013, 04:18:16 PM »
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Actually, what I wrote above about carbonates is quite likely rubbish  :-[ I just realised what I wrote while making the beds. It would be true of other weak acids, but

CO32- + 2H+ -> H2O + CO2

or in other words, a carbonate plus acid in the presence of water gives water and carbon dioxide. That's how the carbonate (and bicarbonate) ie KH is used up.
This is why you find bicarbonate of soda in the home baking section. It is mixed with an acid such as tartaric acid in both baking powder and self raising flour. As soon as moisture in the form of eggs and/or milk is added to a cake mixture, the bicarb and acid react creating bubbles of carbon dioxide. The cake mixture is then heated, setting the mixture and trapping the bubbles. It is why cake mixture should be put in the oven asap or the resulting cake will be flat.


As for the pH drop when nitrate is formed - biological entities are at work here. It is not likely to be a nice plain chemical reaction. Biological entities use enzymes and all sorts of intermediates to carry out reactions that are not easy to do in a test tube. this is how we convert sugar into carbon dioxide, water and energy. Not exactly a straight forward a -> b reaction. It would not surprise me if it turns out that the bacteria do all sorts of complicted things to turn ammonia into nitrite then into nitrate, and there would likely be all sorts of other rections going on inside the bacterial cells as well, the products of which could well end up outside the cell in the water.
Whatever actually happens, the direct result of the nitrogen cycle is nitrate in the water and a lot more hydrogen ions - ie a lower pH.






I would have preferred to study biochemistry rather than chemistry but I had a major disadvantage - I just couldn't memorise all those metabolic pathways. So my degree is in chemistry with biochemistry as my auxilliary subject. At the uni I went to back in the 1970s, we studied 3 subjects in the first year, then decided on the degree subject after the first year exams, studying 2 subjects in a 2:1 ratio in the second year and just one subject in the third year. I did chemistry, biochemistry and zoology; chemistry and biochemistry; chemistry. My husband did chemistry, physics and maths; chemistry and physics; chemistry. Yes, we did meet at uni  ;D

Offline ColinB

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2013, 04:48:24 PM »
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CO32- + 2H+ -> H2O + CO2

or in other words, a carbonate plus acid in the presence of water gives water and carbon dioxide. That's how the carbonate (and bicarbonate) ie KH is used up.

Yep - that's why you use KH and pH to determine the CO2 concentration in your water.


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Offline SteveS

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2013, 07:01:22 PM »
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My CSE in chemistry just isn't up to all this stuff.  It was 40 years ago!  I started out keeping fish, I didn't want to become a chemist or a lighting technician or a photographer or an electrician or a structural engineer or a gardener or a web designer or ............

I just want to keep fish!

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Offline water watcher

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2013, 07:37:43 PM »
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Colin/Sue - it's like a different language... I would like to say i understood everything you both wrote, but i didn't (not even the 2nd time round)
Which is why my BSc is in social science - now if you want an explanation on how Operant Conditioning effects the behaviour of your fish, i'm your man.  :D

Offline jesnon

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2013, 08:04:29 PM »
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Haha yes I'm with water watcher as a Psychology BSc myself ha

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Offline Smurrayuk

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2013, 10:29:02 AM »
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So your tank nitrate is about 25 higher than the tap nitrate. In that case yes, a water change would help. How often do you clean the tank, how much water do you take out (roughly, a fifth, half etc?) and do you clean the gravel, if that's what's on the bottom, at the same time?
There are a few causes of a too-high nitrate. Too many fish for the tank size; feeding too much; not cleaning any left over food out of the gravel; not doing frequent enough water changes; not doing big enough water changes.

And don't worry about the difference in pH. Freshly run tapwater usually has a different pH from tank water or tapwater that's stood for 24 hours. A lot of water cpmanies add carbon dioxide to the water to help prevent limescale deposits in the mains pipes. This makes the water slightly acid, but it gasses out when the tapwater stands so the pH rises slightly.

I'm glad my topic is raising such interesting conversations, unfortunately I've understood none of it!! I'm a BA man myself, so I'm completely lost.

Anyway to answer Sue's question above, I clean about 20% of the water using a syphon to pick up the gravel and I'm doing a water change every 2-3 days. I've been leaving the filter though, unless there's any obvious plant leaves stuck in it then I'll pick them out.

My two remaining fish do seem quite happy at the moment, so hopefully the water levels are stabilising.

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Offline ColinB

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2013, 10:49:06 AM »
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That's good news.... but I do stress the importance of being able to test for ammonia at this stage in your fishes life as this will determine how much water you need to change to keep the level below 0.25ppm. Above this level then it can start to damage their gills which will stress them and make them more prone to disease.

Us BSc's will always stick together!! ;D


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Panda Cory (7) - Honey Gourami (3) - Ember Tetra (9) - Lemon Tetra (4) - Cherry Barb (1) - Otocinclus (2) -
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Offline Sue

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2013, 12:18:43 PM »
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Us BSc's will always stick together!! ;D

In our house you don't have much choice  ;D I have a BSc in chemistry, husband has a PhD and younger son has an MChem and is currently doing research for a PhD. Older son did study chemistry for 1 year 2 terms before deciding it wasn't what he wanted to do.

Offline Smurrayuk

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2013, 05:22:07 PM »
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Water checked at the fish shop all levels seem ok. Another member of staff suggested that's perhaps I had two males and one female, which may have caused the problem. I have a male red wag barb, not sure about the guppy. When I get some more fish ill make sure it's female though to balance it out.

The though has spent a lot of today sitting on top of the filter which is also right next to the heater, it's not gulping air or anything. It's just sat there!!

Any suggestions?

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Neon Tetra (8) - Platy (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Japonica Shrimp (1) - Neon Tetra (8) - Platy (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Japonica Shrimp (1) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (1) -
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Offline Smurrayuk

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2013, 05:41:07 PM »
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Above should say:

The guppy though......

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Offline water watcher

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2013, 07:42:36 PM »
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It must be female - like my better half and always cold...

Sorry, no idea

Offline ColinB

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2013, 07:44:27 AM »
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Water checked at the fish shop all levels seem ok.

Another member of staff suggested that's perhaps I had two males and one female, which may have caused the problem. I have a male red wag barb, not sure about the guppy. When I get some more fish ill make sure it's female though to balance it out.

The though has spent a lot of today sitting on top of the filter which is also right next to the heater, it's not gulping air or anything. It's just sat there!!

Any suggestions?

Do you have the actual value for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate? This is a fish shop that has given you lots of bad advice and what their view of 'OK' levels are may not be my view of what OK levels are.

It's the easiest thing in the fishy world to sex a guppy (and platy), males have gonopodia while females have an anal fin:



MALE GUPPY:




I'm afraid that sitting in one place a lot during the day is never a good sign with guppies. That's the sort of behaviour mine exhibited before turning up their little fishy toes. I've found that now my two tanks have aged and matured (i.e. got a load of micro-organism colonies that take six months or so to grow) that my guppies have stopped getting ill and settled down to living a nice guppy life. Guppies seem to be too fragile to cope with a new tank, even if it's been fishless cycled, and I think your tank is still cycling so they're going to have a hard time.

My remaining guppies are all males, two in each tank, because I don't want to be over-run with baby guppies.

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Offline Sue

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2013, 08:38:21 AM »
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To continue from Colin's post -
Oncce you have identified the sex of your platies and guppies, you need at least two females for every male. Livebearer males will chase females constantly. You need more females than males so that each female gets time out while the males chase other females.
And male platies will chase female guppies, and vice versa.

If you have all males or all females that's fine. It's just if you choose to have mixed sexes that you need at least twice as a mny females as males. Three times more is even better.

Offline Smurrayuk

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2013, 01:49:45 PM »
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Thanks for the pictures Colin, I definitely have a male guppy and a male platy at the moment.  I think the one I took back may have been female then because the guppy kept on pestering it. 

The guppy today has been moving about a bit more, it's not sat on top of the filter anymore. He has moved and sat on top of the little bridge I've got and underneath it. (I've got a hiding log on order which should be a little better than the bridge for them).

Am I best to try another water change if the ammonia levels are high? Then I'll need to get myself an ammonia testing kit.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Neon Tetra (8) - Platy (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Japonica Shrimp (1) - Neon Tetra (8) - Platy (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Japonica Shrimp (1) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (1) -
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Offline Smurrayuk

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2013, 01:57:29 PM »
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Bought an ammonia testing kit and some more activated carbon filter. I've heard when I change the filter to cut it in half and only change half at a time. Is that right?

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Neon Tetra (8) - Platy (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Japonica Shrimp (1) - Neon Tetra (8) - Platy (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Japonica Shrimp (1) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (1) -
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Offline ColinB

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2013, 02:08:08 PM »
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Here's a quote....

In summary carbon is an unnecessary and even harmful media that does not need to be used in the aquarium except for short-term applications such as removing medications. When choosing a filter pick one with customizable media that do not require you to use carbon. Avoid those that provide hybrid cartridges that include carbon built in to mechanical media. When using customizable filters use more biological media in place of the carbon.

Filter manufacturers like you to use carbon so you keep replacing it and giving them more cash.... don't fall for it! ;D

I can't remember what size tank you have, but I think it was on the small size so I would advise you not to get any more male platies. I had two in my 55litre tank and one would kick hell out of the other to the extent that I bought an isolation tank to split them up. One male on his own would 'play nicely' with the male guppies.

On the other hand.... I've got two tanks now!! ;)

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (7) - Honey Gourami (3) - Ember Tetra (9) - Lemon Tetra (4) - Cherry Barb (1) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline SteveS

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Re: A sad little Green Tiger Barb
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2013, 02:22:26 PM »
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This image has 5 and 6 the wrong way round I'm afraid.  The fins nearest the gills are the pectoral fins, the fins a little further back are the Pelvic or Ventral fins.

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Angelfish (1) - Panda Cory (10) - Harlequin Rasbora (10) - Otocinclus (10) - Japonica Shrimp (10) - Honey Gourami (10) - Galaxy Rasbora (10) -
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