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Restocking A Slightly Acidic, Softer Water Planted Tank

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Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2017, 02:25:19 PM »
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It's difficult to tell, but I think the trend continues. It doesn't help that I had a few days after the slide ran out before I put the new one in.

Edit: I should have said that the trace below shows the last week's readings.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2017, 02:31:11 PM »
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The pH seems to almost directly follows the lighting pattern. The first peak is about lunchtime, just before the lights go out for the siesta. And the tank is in the lounge, so the evening peak is higher because we usually have the lounge lights on (additional background lighting)

Online Sue

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2017, 02:37:02 PM »
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That is what I would expect in a planted tank. The pH drops to its lowest just before light reaches the tank. It increases when the tank lights come on for their first period, then drops as they enter the off period, but not as low as during the night.. When the lights come on for the second time, the pH rises again. Once the tank and room lights go out, the pH drops to its lowest point just before it gets light again next day.
When the tank lights are on, the plants take up CO2 so the pH rises; when all the lights are off, plants do not take up CO2 so the CO2 level in the tank increases and the pH falls.

The only mysterious thing is the very slight increase day on day.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2017, 02:47:59 PM »
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The only thing I can think of is that my tank is no more than 20% stocked with fish at the moment. And that the consumption of CO2 during lit hours exceeds it's generation during lights off.

If that is the case, the trend should change as I increase my stock.

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2017, 02:49:57 PM »
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Thanks @Matt for linking to the thread where I was having problems with my pH. It saves me finding it.  :)

@Helen it will be interesting to see if the readings stabilise as you stock your tank further.


Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2018, 11:29:55 PM »
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So I'd like to start buying new fish this weekend.  :fishy1:

But I'm a bit worried about the pH of my tank. It is supposed to be neutral to slightly acidic (and all the fish I have chosen are suitable for this), but it is currently 8.1 - 8.2.

I plan to do all the water tests that I have tomorrow (Nitrate, P, K, GH, KH, 6 in 1 test strip that includes pH, nitrate and both hardness).

I suspect that the high pH is due to lack of CO2 (and Kh buffering), because the pH variation with lighting has more or less disappeared. But how do I check this? I have a CO2 kit, but I've not used it for at least a couple years, so I'm not sure how to check it works (properly) and am slightly worried about causing a pH crash if my Kh turns out to be low (which I suspect, but can confirm tomorrow).

I will post test results, and then ask for suggestions, I guess.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2018, 01:11:43 PM »
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So some test results:

Tank water
pH 7.0 - 7.5
Nitrate 10 (a little higher, but no where near as high as 25, which is the next colour on the chart)
GH 107ppm
KH 72ppm
Phosphate 1mg/l
Potassium 20mg

Rested de-chlorinated water
GH 54ppm
KH 36-54ppm

The fact that the 3 macro nutrients are as high as they are, suggests to me that my plants aren't growing. So something else is the limiting factor. This supports my theory of low CO2.

What is interesting to me is that the hardness in the tank is higher than that of my tap water. I do have a lot of small snail shells in the tank, could these be the source, or do I need to test my rocks?

Online Sue

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2018, 01:44:43 PM »
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It could be the snail shells but I would still test the rocks. It is worth knowing everything there is to know about tank decor  :)

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2018, 01:49:07 PM »
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I agree with Sue.
Fluctuations in mineral content could have a negative impact on your fish if you end up performing larger/less frequent water changes.
Best to investigate & resolve now before you put anything else in the tank.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2018, 01:57:23 PM »
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Do I test the rocks by dripping kitchen vinegar on them? Or some other way?

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2018, 02:17:41 PM »
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The vinegar test is what I've done before.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2018, 05:12:20 PM »
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No fizzing at all from the vinegar test.

I got my CO2 diffuser out - it's going to need some significant scrubbing!  :-[

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2018, 05:54:30 PM »
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What else is in your tank?

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2018, 07:03:24 PM »
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I have lots of wood (that has been in my tank from the beginning). The substrate is Eco complete and small gravel. And I have lots of plants.

I do have several years accumulation of snail shells. I think my kuhlis eat the snails so I very rarely have snail problems.

Offline Matt

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2018, 07:34:40 PM »
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It would be interesting to see how quickly the hardness increases following a water change...

Are you adding any chemicals to the tank other than dechlorinator?

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2018, 09:57:49 PM »
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Do you top up evaporated water from you tank, or only ever do water changes?
I'm wondering if you are having some evaporation issues, which may cause problems.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2018, 10:24:37 PM »
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I'm not adding any fertilisers at the moment. I wanted the tank to settle after all the rearranging so that I could get a baseline from which to work out the correct amounts of any required supplements.

During the period of neglect I topped up evaporation once (about 5l in 170l).

The amount of water in my tank has increased from 170l (measured at initial setup) to 220l (estimated) with all the substrate removal. Does that count?

I am contemplating doing a couple large water changes tomorrow to see if that makes a difference. Think I've run out of time this evening.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2018, 10:33:15 PM »
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It's just occurred to me that I could have an evaporation issue and not necessarily know about it. My tank has a footprint of 120cm X 45cm, so I could lose a litre and not necessarily notice unless it was at exactly the right level at the top of the tank that a couple mm change in depth showed.

So what can I do about it? A regular large (>50%) water change?

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2018, 10:35:57 PM »
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If I do go down the route of large water changes, are there any limits so I don't cause my existing fish distress?

Should I do a larger than normal water change before getting at new fish?

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2018, 10:52:03 PM »
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I only mentioned evaporation because it's a problem I have on my betta tank (which doesn't have a lid). I top up with RO in between water changes.
Pure water evaporates and leaves the minerals, so topping up with tap water would increase hardness over a period of time.
I'm just throwing ideas out there and I'm certain that the quantities that you are talking about wouldn't cause problems.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2018, 10:54:46 PM »
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I've just wondered if perhaps it is less of a problem than I initially thought.

My hardness in my tank is 107ppm (moderately soft), in comparison with the hardness of my tap water at 54ppm (soft). Both are easily within the preferred range of all my current fish.

It is the pH that might be an issue, but I keep coming back to lack of CO2, as I have no better ideas.

Do I have enough buffering (Kh = 72ppm) to avoid a potential pH crash if I add CO2?

If my tap water is softer than my tank water, would there be much benefit in using RO to top up?

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2018, 11:07:07 PM »
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Looking again at water quality in so much detail has got me thinking about my potential stock list again. There are a couple potential clashes that I'd like other opinions on.

Kuhli loaches and BN Plec with a pair of kribensis.
Kuhlis and the BN Plec get on ok as they've got their own favourite spaces (Bertie claims the caves, the kuhlis like the bogwood/ crypts). If I increase the number of kuhlis and introduce a pair of Kribensis, am I risking a clash over caves? What's the minimum number of new cave areas that i would need to introduce to avoid conflict? Should I limit the number of kuhlis I increase to? (Currently proposed to be 14)

According to Seriously Fish, 5 band barbs have a max hardness of 90ppm and Dwarf Rainbow fish have a minimum hardness of 90ppm. Although my hardness seems to be around this, in reality it isn't ever going to be spot on 90ppm. Do I need to find alternative choices? (Neither of these species are in my tank yet)

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2018, 11:07:56 PM »
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Are you testing your tap water straight after taking it from the tap?
The pH of my tap water changes over a 3 day period. It is 7.0 - 7.2 straight from tap, then increases to around 8.2 over around 3 days. This will also be reflected in your tank, as it is in mine.
I have quite hard water, so don't know what sort of impact the changes would have on your tank. To avoid large(ish) fluctuations in your water parameters smaller/more frequent water changes would be better.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2018, 11:11:54 PM »
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I had a couple litres of de-chlorinated water left over from my last water change (last week). So I used this as the tap water sample. Could that have skewed the result? (I remembered you saying before about the significant change in the pH of your tap and tank water @Littlefish )

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2018, 11:17:55 PM »
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There are also discussions to be had regarding the parameters listed for specific fish, and whether they were wild caught or commercially bred (in different water conditions), etc.
Unfortunately it can be a complex discussion, and I've had a couple of glasses of wine tonight, so I may have to pick this one up again tomorrow.

Just saw your other post.
My previous discussions with Sue and others concluded with us thinking that perhaps the water company added CO2 a source to ensure that pH was neutral at the tap. The would gas off over a couple of days, revealing the true pH of the water. I would have expected that dechlorinated water from the previous week would have shown the "true" pH, which may still be lower than your tank pH.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2018, 11:37:39 PM »
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Thanks @Littlefish .

Surely after wine is the best time to have deep conversations?  :cheers:

Argh. I so want to buy more fish, but don't want to endanger them if my tank isn't ready.  :fishy1: :vcross:

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #76 on: January 14, 2018, 06:50:59 AM »
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I would suggest you do a large water change @Helen (and in answer to your previous question this means no more than 50%) then give the tank a few days to settle and see what your test results are. If they have changed since your previous results, give it another week and test again.  Again, see how they have changed. We want to get to a point where we understand a) what's causing the hardness to increase in your tank, and b) what the stable hardness level is likely to be once things settle down in the tank.  The above plan should give us a good feel for both.  :cheers:

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #77 on: January 14, 2018, 01:01:41 PM »
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You are doing the right thing by ensuring you have your tank right before getting your fish.
Patience isn't my strong point, and I was very frustrated when I was in a similar situation.
Hopefully another week won't be too long.  :)

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #78 on: January 14, 2018, 02:04:11 PM »
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I changed 105l this morning.  :yikes:
I can't see me ever changing more than 50% of the tank water unless under dire emergency. It was quite hard work.

While I was doing it, I got to thinking about all our recent discussions. Over the Christmas break, we've had a lot of children in the house. My kids know not to touch my fish tank, but I realised that young children seem rather fascinated with the magnets that hold my Seneye in place. And so it gradually moved up the tank, as far as I could get it. I have now moved it back to what I think is the most sensible location - in the middle (horizontally and vertically) of the short side of the tank (furthest from the filter).

I know position in the tank will affect the temperature readings, but does it affect any of the other readings? Also the water samples I did the tests on came from the top few cms of the tank water.

And then I got to thinking about what you had said @Littlefish  about the water companies adding CO2 to reduce pH to neutral. If my problem is lack of CO2, then any additional CO2 can only be good for my tank. But also, if I am concerned about pH swings from large water changes, then I really need to know the pH of the water when it goes into my tank (rather than when it has had time to off gas).

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #79 on: January 14, 2018, 03:00:24 PM »
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Large water changes are hard work.

I'm fairly certain that quite some time ago someone posted about location of water samples, and said that they took samples from deeper in the tank. Perhaps @Sue will remember this (I think it was posted by ExremeOne/Simon, perhaps I'll be able to find it).

I also remember someone mentioning that they ran off several containers of water a few days prior to their water changes, to allow time to gassing off and reaching room temperature, but I can;t remember if that was here or at a shop. Sorry I'm being a bit vague today, I'm blaming it in the wine last night.  :)

Online Sue

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #80 on: January 14, 2018, 03:45:01 PM »
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Leaving water to stand for days is one way of gassing off chlorine, but that doesn't work if the water company uses chloramine.

In hard water areas, water companies often add something, usually CO2, to reduce the pH and help prevent limescale build up in the mains pipes. In places with very soft acidic water, they add some thing to raise the pH to prevent corrosion of metal pipes. Both of these gas off, and the pH reverts to its untreated level. So leaving water standing for at least a day will avoid pH swings after a water change.
But there are other considerations - do you have a childproof place to leave 105 litres water to degas? And if you do, how easy would it be to transport the water from this place to your tank?


But this only affects pH and not hardness. The only way hardness increases is by adding calcium and/or magnesium to the water (hardness being a measure of calcium and magnesium) If your tank hardness is higher than your tap hardness, something in the tank is adding calcium and/or magnesium. This could be topping up with tap water between water changes, calcareous decor dissolving, or something in your new substrate.
The vinegar test is not 100% reliable. The better, but more time consuming, way is to put each piece of decor into a small container of water. Test the hardness as soon as it is put in the container, and again after 1 week. And swirl the water up before taking the sample to make sure it is thoroughly mixed up. If there is any substrate left over, test that as well.

It is also worth doing some pH testing. Run a large glassful of water and test it immediately. Then again after 1 day, 1 week, and as many times during that week as you feel like doing. And test the decor-containing water after a week as well as the hardness.

If we can pin down what is causing the tank levels, we can work out a way of coping with it.

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #81 on: January 14, 2018, 10:31:46 PM »
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I definitely don't have the ability to store more than 10l of new water. It pretty much comes out of the tap and goes into the tank. 10l at a time, dechlorinator added as the "in" bucket fills up. I lug "in" bucket halfway across the house, up in my step and slowly pour it into the tank so as not to disturb the substrate.

The only new substrate is the play sand, which was washed till the water was clear with removed tank water (in the "out" bucket). The increase in pH trend started before the sand went in and didn't seem to be affected by it. But I did wash too much sand and have kept hold of the excess.

The fine gravel substrate came out of the tank, was sieved and then went back in.

I think I might have to buy another pH test kit. At the moment I have my Seneye and a 6 in 1 test strip (which I think is pretty awful!). So I'm struggling to get a reliable reading on my tap water.

In the past I have added calcium to the tank in the form of calcium nitrate. But not for many months and I have changed a lot of water since then.

How accurate are the hardness tests? I ask because the difference between the two readings is 3 drops of reagent for GH and 1-2 drops for KH.

And lastly, I have to say thank you for all your support that I was doing the right think micro analysing my water parameters. But I caved. This afternoon a dozen five band barbs joined my tank.  :-[  :fishy1: They are a similar size to my harlies at the moment, so I think they are a total of about 36cm.

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2018, 11:01:28 PM »
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From my own experience I can safely say that I nearly disappeared up my own bottom trying to work out whar was going on with my water. I spent days testing glasses if tap water over several days, checking what decor/hardscape materials I had in my tanks, and drawing lines on post-its (other brands of sticky note are available) to monitor water evaporation.
Seriously, you can drive yourself nuts over this.

Nice choice of fish, pics required when they are settled.  :)

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2018, 11:09:17 PM »
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Thank you @Littlefish  :cheers:

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2018, 07:00:39 AM »
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I like fivebands but Mrs Matt doesn't... so I have fish jealousy right now!!

Pictures should really be put in the forum rules  :cheers:

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2018, 10:00:28 AM »
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Pictures should really be put in the forum rules  :cheers:

 :rotfl:

Online Sue

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2018, 10:16:51 AM »
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To be honest, as long as your tank water is stable - the GH is not constantly increasing - I wouldn't worry too much.

I use buckets to refill my tank, though because of the dose rate of the dechlorinator it is 9.5 litres per bucket. But i don't pour it in from the bucket, I put that on a stool and ladle the water with a jug and through a home made colander which stops the water stream from making a hole in the sand. The colander is a 170g, Total yogurt pot with as many holes in the bottom as I could make with a knitting needle without them merging into one big hole. Using this will also aerate the new water slightly, driving out any of these temporary pH alterers (not much but a bit)

Hmmm, that calls for a test to see just how much effect next time I do a water change ......

Online Helen

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Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
« Reply #87 on: Today at 01:46:43 PM »
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I've just ordered / reserved some kuhli loaches from my local MA. What are thoughts on 14 kuhli loaches with a pair of kribs in my 240l planted tank? I intend to include some more caves in the tank, but my main concern is that if 14 kuhlis is a good number for the tank, is it too many with the kribs?

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