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Think Fish Tropical Fish Forum => Fish Community Creator => Topic started by: Helen on September 19, 2017, 08:47:13 PM

Title: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on September 19, 2017, 08:47:13 PM
I seem to be a little inept at getting my community creator tank details across, so I've attached a screenshot of the selection that I'm currently researching.

BN Plec, khuli loaches and harlequin rasboras are non negotiable, as they are the current inhabitants (though not in the numbers below).

I currently like the idea of fiveband barbs, dwarf rainbow fish and a pair of cyclids.

I think my aim is to have fish that are visually distinctive. But of course they need to actually be compatible tank mates.

Any and all comments , thoughts, ideas welcome.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on September 19, 2017, 09:58:36 PM
Since you want to have a sizeable shoal of harlequins, how about another big shoal rather than several small ones? I used to be in the 'minimum numbers of lots of species' camp but I have switched to the 'lots of fish of a few species' camp. In my 180 litre I have 2 shoals of about 15 each of espei's rasboras (slender harlequins on here) and Daisy's ricefish. But I know a lot of people do prefer more species than me.

Any of the cichlids would work as bottom fish - just one species. Bolivian rams and kribs need to chose their own mates. The way to do this is to stand quietly in front of the shop tank till the fish forget you are there. Watch them closely. Males will chase other fish away but if a male allows a female to stay nearby without chasing her, get that pair. Cockatoo apistos are harem breeders so they can be kept as 1 male 2 or 3 females.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on September 19, 2017, 10:46:16 PM
I'm with you on the lots of fish, fewer species. I previously had Cardinal tetras and gouramis with my harlies.

But I'm trying to make an effort to do something a bit different this time.

And I'm avoiding the gouramis, I've tried a few types and I'm not sure they are robust enough in my tank. Though it is possible that they didn't like the building work. Despite covering the tank during work, there was a lot of dust around for a long time.

Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on September 20, 2017, 06:39:22 AM
It's possible that Bolivian ram and cockatoo cichlids would work together as pairs in one large tank with plants/rocks etc in so they can define territories.  They come from the same part of the world after all.  Cichlids communicate with each other through colour changes and movement much like humans do... in different languages depending on where they are from.  For this reason I would avoid kribensis if you want to do more than one species as they will speak a different language where "go away" could be interpreted as "food here" which would lead to constant punch ups between them.  I would do some specific research online for cockatoos and Bolivian rams to see if you are comfortable with mixing them. When I upgrade my tank (eventually!) I'm going to try mixing rams and checkerboard cichlids which exist together in the wild.

You have quite a mixed bad of fish there... then again i probably do myself but a few other thoughts...
Harlies, Fiveband barbs (and Tiger Barbs).  I sort of have these in one category in my head. They are all orange and black fish and not very visually distinctive as you say.  I have rationalised this in my mind as tiger barbs are the best looking but can be nippy so avoid, so go fiveband barbs instead, but fivebands only come in one colour whereas tiger barbs are also available in green and gold.  Harlies are smaller so you can have more of them and come in purple (quite readily available) and gold (these might have to be purchased online) - Harlies therefore win in my book.  I would consider mixing the colour types for a super interesting shoal. Again I'll be doing this eventually!

That would let you bump up the number of black neons to match cardinal tetras at 12 which would probably look better in my view.

I've no experience with dwarf raonbowfish but I think it's a good idea if only because they will be visually distinctive as you say. I also try to mix different behaviours of fish as I find this interesting to watch and this would tick this box for me too.

Just my thoughts... on your tank... so feel free to ignore me completely :))
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on September 20, 2017, 09:18:53 AM
Another thing to bear in mind is the behaviour of the fish. Some fish dash around (tiger barbs) while others pootle around (harlequins, cichlids). If you have fish that dash around too much, they'll intimidate the harlies and any cichlids you get later.
Of the fish on your list, cardinals are pootlers and probably black neons (they are not actually related to cardinals and neons so I'm not too sure about them). I also don't know about 5 band barbs, someone who has those will be able to tell you. I've had dwarf rainbowfish and they were sort of in between, not mad dashers but more active than my espei's rasboras which are closely related to harlies.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on September 20, 2017, 08:19:45 PM
Thank you, some good ideas. I like the idea of mixing different colour s in the same shoal. I actually got 6 copper harlies and 6 normal because the lad in the shop reassured me that they were the same fish (I asked in as many different ways as I could think of. I didn't ask about died fish, but my lfs is an MA and I don't think that's something I have to worry about with them. Please correct me if I'm wrong). I will look into different colour harlies.

When my oh pointed out the fiveband barbs in the shop, I hesitated because I knew they looked like another fish that would be less suitable. I had to come home and look up that it was tiger barbs.

I think I prefer the pootler fish to dashy ones. I have a bit of a soft spot for zebra danios, but they've not done well in my tank previously. I think it is because faster fish generally need more calcium and that is something I have very little of in my tank (I also struggle with some fast growing stem plants for the same reason).

I'll have to research black neons a bit more - I thought I was doing the colour thing looking at them.

I think I'll stick with just one type of cichlids. I'd rather not have too many bottom dwellers as I'd never see my kuhlis if they have serious competition.

Definitely more of a mixed bag than I've previously had.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on September 20, 2017, 08:42:35 PM
Zebra Danios prefer lower temperatures which may be why they have had a shorter lifespan than normal in your tank.  Temperature controls a fishes metabolism. They would have been on overdrive constantly being at tropical temperatures  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on September 20, 2017, 09:32:26 PM
Re harlequins, there are three related species - Trigonostigma heteromorpha, T. espei and T. hengeli. They all have black triangles, and orange colour on the body.
T. heteromorpha are harlequins and have the biggest black triangle. There is also a colour variant called black or purple or royal harlequin (all the same fish!) which is nearly all black with an orange nose.
T. hengeli has a small triangle, an orange line above the triangle and mainly grey everywhere else. Their common names are copper rasbora, porkchop rasbora and hengel's rasbora. If your copper rasboras fit this description, they are not harelquins but they are closely related and should shoal together.
T. espei has a small triangle like hengeli but has more orange on their bodies. Their common names are slender harlequin, lambchop rasbora and espe's rasbora.
You'll find photos of all three here http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/search/trigonostigma

I got some T. hengeli last year - or that's what they were labelled as. But a year on they have much more orange than T. hengeli should so I think they are actually espei.


Cardinals, neons and green neons are in the genus Paracheirodon; black neons are in the genus Hyphessobrycon. This is the problem with common names, they sound as though fish are related when they are not  :)


I would avoid tiger barbs now you have the harlies. They can be very nippy fish and are best kept on their own. They do have the advantage that they come in three colours (orange with black stripes, very pale orange with white stripes and dark green) so you can have all three colours to make the tank look more interesting.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on September 20, 2017, 10:13:42 PM
Thank you for so much information. Looking at the photos and descriptions on Seriously Fish, I'm fairly sure my copper raspora are actually t. Espeii. But the lights are off now, so I can't check. (Seems a bit mean to wake them up just to look at what colour they are!)

I will have to be more careful when I go back. Possibly a case of being served by the "weekend staff".

If I do go for the fiveband barbs, I don't want to end up with nippy tiger barbs! 😯

And I'll have to look in more detail at the different types / colours of tetra. Though they are not the strongest contenders at the moment.

@Sue, you mentioned that T. Hengeli and harlies will shoal together ok, but not whether the T. Espeii would be ok? I would add that at the moment, they all seem happy shoaling together. I can see from Seriously Fish that T. Espeii seem to be perhaps 30% smaller. If I get more rasboras, would there be a preference for which ones? Are there any notable behavioural differences?

I'm just off to update my community creator...
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on September 21, 2017, 09:15:10 AM
Because the three Trigonostigmas are closely related, they should all shoal together. If you want more of them you could always get equal numbers of the two species. My espei (or hengeli whichever they really are) behave the way other people's harlequins do.
One thing that I and other people on here have found is that they don't like bright lights. Until I got some floating plants my rasboras stayed in the back corner. As the floating plants took over more of the surface, the rasboras came further into the tank, but always under the plants.

I wouldn't believe anything a shop said. Even the ones who know about fish can't know about every fish so I always assume none of them know anything, it is safer that way  ;D
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on September 21, 2017, 10:05:29 PM
Because I've got lights that really are too short for the tank, there are two dark corners. And the rasboras (I can't call them harlies, if half aren't!) definitely hang out in the less exposed of the two dark corners. I'm hoping that as my Vallis grows back in more, it'll provide better coverage for them and so they'll move forward. I think there's currently too big an exposed space between the dark corner and where a plant (the name of which I've forgotten) provides plenty of surface cover.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on September 22, 2017, 06:25:30 PM
I think my "copper" raspora are probably espeii. I've managed to take a photo (sorry it's not great, had to use the digital zoom to avoid spooking them) of one definitely harlequin and one copper.

I think the body of the copper looks mostly orange, rather than grey with an orange line.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on September 22, 2017, 07:15:08 PM
The fish on the left does look like mine. The shop tank was labelled Hengel's rasboras and they had harlequin rasboras and Espe's rasboras in two other tanks. It's only reading up on them since - and reading a description of them on another forum - that made me think again about which species mine are.

The photo is what mine looked like when I first got them. There is no orange line above the triangle, and there is orange on the body.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on September 22, 2017, 07:55:35 PM
I think they both look a lot like the photo in the "slender rasbora" profile. 😀 Which is labelled as espeii.
http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish/slender-harlequin.html
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on September 22, 2017, 08:07:47 PM
Mine do have a lot more orange on them than they did a year ago - they were still young and stressed from the buying process in my photo. The photos I've seen of hengeli have very little orange on them.


I don't actually think it matters that much which ones we have. Their requirements are the same, they will get on with each other. It's just if we add to the shoal it would be better to try and make sure we get the same rather than have yet another slightly different species  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on September 22, 2017, 08:49:57 PM
So I've looked up all the fish on my potential list. They are all either from Asia or south America - with the exception of kribensis, which are from Africa. They also mostly have the same type of habitat - except for the rams.

So I could add Fiveband barbs and dwarf rainbow fish and have an Asian tank (except for my BN Plec). I'd need to check the pH of my water, as the addition of the rainbow fish significantly reduces the range that is acceptable to all.

Or I could go for the mixed bag.

I think I should probably rule out the rams, as I don't think they would like my tank as much.

@Matt 's comment about different "languages" has got me thinking whether kribensis would be ok in the tank, even if they were the only territorial breeders. They are beautiful fish and would definitely be visually distinctive to all the others!

Although rasboras and fiveband barbs are similar shapes and colours, I think the bands on the barbs would be an interesting addition.

It's difficult to move away from a fish that I've decided I like! Except if it wouldn't do well in my tank.

I'll have to make sure that when I get another dozen rasboras, half are harlies and half are coppers (I'll have to go by appearance rather than name!)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on September 22, 2017, 09:12:34 PM
With kribs, it's really only south American cichlids that should be avoided. Apistos, rams etc are bottom dwelling territorial fish like kribs and while the S American cichlids 'understand' each other, they won't 'understand' kribs - or vice versa.
In a big enough tank, it is possible to have more than one species of S American cichlid, but I would avoid having 2 apisto species. Something like an apisto and Bolivian rams could work. Bolivian rams are easy than rams because they have a wider tolerance of water conditions.

But kribs and upper shoaling fish from S America or Asia shouldn't be a problem. Seriously Fish suggests good tankmates include small characins (ie tetras), barbs, danios, and rasboras. It also says they are OK with other West African cichlids, if I could think of any  :-[
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 18, 2017, 11:14:34 PM
So I think I've decided what I'm eventually going to restock my tank with (when I've got the substrate and plants sorted).

My stocking list will be:
1 BN Plec
14 X kuhli loaches
13 X harlequin rasboras
12 X espeii rasboras
6 X five band barbs
6 X dwarf rainbow fish
2 X kribensis

This will take my tank to 89% stocked according to the community creator. I know from past experience, that with my low nitrate, soft water, my heavily planted tank is better balanced with a higher fish stock. But because I can't maintain my tank as frequently as I'd like, I've switched a lot of my plants for slow growing ones. I know this will effect the optimum fish stock level for my tank.

I've also read (several times) the article that suggests that the community creator uses different (more generous?) stocking calculations to most other sources.

The other thing I'm not so clear about is which figure the 'tank volume' actually refers to. Is it the volume of water in the tank, or the volume of the tank itself. Ie, I have a 240l tank, but I'm in the process of removing a large amount of substrate. So where I used to have 170l of water, I'm not really sure how much more water I will have when I start restocking fish.

So taking into account plants and additional water I will have in my tank, is my proposed stocking level ok?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on November 18, 2017, 11:20:08 PM
It's normally advised to take 10% off your tanks theoretical volume to account for the decor, substrate etc. So this would put you fairly highly stocked.  BItut doable in your low nitrate water if you can keep up with weekly water changes.

Alternatively, it does strike me that harlequins and espeii are relatively similar fish... Could their numbers be reduced to create you some breathing space?

Either way I think your stocking list looks great and it will make for a really interesting tank  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 18, 2017, 11:21:09 PM
I thought I'd put my other question in a separate comment: the last one was about stocking levels. This is about fish compatibility.

I've had a few different conversations about how many kuhlis I could have in my tank and also whether kribensis would be ok in my tank with fish from other continents. I realised today that I need to join up these conversations. If I have 14 kuhlis, would they be ok with (and vice versa) a pair of kribensis? I have seen my kuhlis hunting on the substrate. Would  it be carnage in my tank with a breeding pair of kribensis (if I'm so lucky) and so many kuhlis?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 18, 2017, 11:37:31 PM
10% of tank volume for substrate etc is a bit low for my tank. As I said, I previously measured that I had 170l water in a 240l tank - giving me 70l of substrate etc, compared to the 24l the 10% rule gives. I would suggest that I'm taking out about 2/3 of the substrate.

Hmm, just done the calc and that would be relatively close to the 10% rule. I have a huge block of bogwood that is staying in the tank. But I suspect it is smaller than when I last measured the water volume. (I noticed that it has some interesting knots in the wood that haven't been there before)

I was aiming for a shoal of about 25 harlequin rasboras, but made the mistake of believing the lad in the shop who said that the espeii (labelled copper rasboras)  were just a colour variant.  I want at least one large shoal, because previously my harlies behaved differently when I increased  the numbers and I love watching all the different behaviours.

PS I won't be doing weekly water changes. It is realistic to say they'll be monthly.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on November 18, 2017, 11:46:30 PM
I wonder if khuli loaches truly are worth their full stocking value... They are very long and thin in comparison to a 'normal' 8cm fish.  What do people think?

I must say though that I would advise reducing the number of loach and rasboras if you are only certain of being able to commit to monthly water changes Helen.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 18, 2017, 11:50:19 PM
Even if it's a heavily planted tank? I previously had to add nitrates at water change to keep my plants happy for macro nutrients. And that can be done without the water change.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Rustle on November 19, 2017, 11:55:12 AM
Hi Helen I am not sure how good they are but if you are lacking calcium. I happen to get these a few days ago for my assassin snails.

It's possible you have heard of them but if not they are called aqualibra mineral blocks. My snails are all over them and my female gourami likes it too.

Maybe worth researching.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: fcmf on November 19, 2017, 02:19:40 PM
PS I won't be doing weekly water changes. It is realistic to say they'll be monthly.
Have you done this before, Helen, and succeeded in having your fish reach/live beyond their respective life expectancies? Just intrigued as to how this went for my own learning's sake. I'd be concerned about soft water not having its KH replenished - cf Sue's experience of a PH crash when she had a period of reducing the frequency of her water changes to less than once weekly - and also about what else is going on in the tank that we can't actually measure for with our home-based test kits. For example, I have very soft water, usually low nitrates (<20 although they have crept up a little lately) and plants (albeit not very skilled at keeping them) but wouldn't risk anything less than a weekly water change as I'm aware that there is much more than ammonia/nitrite/nitrates which may impact on fishes' welfare.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 19, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
Thanks @Rustle . I'm not sure that's the right format to add calcium to my tank. One of the ways I add nitrates is with calcium nitrate granules. But I'm trying to set my tank up in a way that minimises the need for supplements. Fast growing stem plants have a high calcium requirement, so I've replaced all my fast growing plants with slower growing ones.

I'm also hoping that the need for supplements is a temporary one until my fish stock level is right. I'm not planning to have any fast swimming or shelled inhabitants that would particularly benefit from calcium blocks.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 19, 2017, 02:43:52 PM
Hi @fcmf . I've had my fish tank (and been a member of this forum and it's predecessor) for about 8 years. My tank has been through quite a bit, including a short move from one wall in the lounge to the adjacent one. And some serious neglect due to two pregnancies.  My smallest 2 legged pet is 2 next week and I've been rejuvenating my tank since June this year. So my the latest period of neglect was over a year.

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT encouraging the sort of zero maintenance regime that my tank had for perhaps 2 years. (Look up Diane Walstead if you are interested in micro environment tanks).

But I am aware that with a young family and a job, my tank won't get the kind of attention that is encouraged. So as I sort my tank out, I'm trying to set it up so that the lack of maintenance doesn't have a detrimental effect on the inhabitants.

I was utterly amazed that my tank did so well with the lack of maintenance. Most of my harlequin rasboras and all my Cardinal tetras seemed to die of old age (I'd had them for 3 years?) . My kuhli loaches are still going strong as is my BN Plec (though I suspect Bertie might have had his growth stunted by the lack of feeding. It was concern that he might starve to death that got me sorting my tank out).

I can only put down the lack of complete failure being down to my tank being so heavily planted, with lots of bogwood and the neglect including feeding. Even now the fish don't get fed every day, so I have to be careful not to overfeed them when I do feed them.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 21, 2017, 10:32:34 PM
Thanks @Matt for your comment on stocking levels Vs water change frequency.

I've been watching my 13 rasboras and thinking about whether my tank will look full with the other fish I'm planning.

I am now thinking that I will restock in a different order and adapt numbers based on how the water conditions change with each addition of fish. I was going to complete my shoals of rasboras  and kuhlis first, then get the new types of fish. What I now plan to do is get half the kuhlis and leave the rest of the rasboras and kuhlis until I've seen how the water conditions balance with all the other fish. If my tank is still behaving as though it is under-stocked, I will look at increasing the kuhlis and /or rasboras to the numbers I mentioned above - keeping an eye on the water parameters.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on November 21, 2017, 10:41:57 PM
Your plan makes a lot of sense Helen.  All the best with it.   :cheers:

It would be nice to hqve regular updates on your readings as I know most of us will want to know how the tank performs with its monthly water changes. 

Weekly water changes are always recommended. I must say that I do sometimes let my tank to two weeks without a change and theres never been any noticeable impact on the plants or fish even when theres been a lot of evaporation in that period.  It's entirely feasible that for those of us fortunate enough to have low nitrate tap water the frequency can be reduced... I only have a 64 litre tank though which probably puts me a greater risk in comparison to yourself.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 22, 2017, 04:48:11 PM
What sort of readings would you like to see @Matt? The ammonia is read constantly (by my Seneye) but if I get things right, it will only show variation when I add new fish.

I'm hoping to eventually balance my fish numbers and plants so that the nitrate is constant and doesn't increase or decrease between water changes.

I think it is other chemicals in the water that you are referring to, that might build up between water changes. And I'm not particularly intending to measure those (I'm not sure where I would start with what to test for!)

I guess the pH could give some indication, but that is doing interesting things at the moment. Because my Seneye takes a measurement every hour (I think), it is possible to see the daily variation in pH. And because I have my lights on a 5-4-5 (ish) regime (with a 4hr siesta) there is even more variation in the pH. Constant monitoring gives some really interesting data (if you're a techy geek like me!) See my Seneye post for more details.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on November 22, 2017, 04:59:04 PM
You should not see an increase in ammonia when adding new fish unless you add a huge number at one go. With a heavily planted tank, the plants should be able to use the extra ammonia output as soon as the fish excrete it.


Plants also help with other chemicals and biochemicals, though the amount they take up depends on the plants species. I live in Teesside where there is a lot of chemical industry, and ICI (before they were forced to sell up) pioneered the use of reed beds to clean the industrial waste water.
All animals excrete a lot of biochemicals, and there are others from the breakdown of the tank waste (fish poo, uneaten food, bits of dead plant). The plants won't be able to remove all of this, and it will build up between water changes.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 22, 2017, 05:08:06 PM
Will there anything I can measure to show the effect on my tank of elongating the period between water changes?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: fcmf on November 22, 2017, 06:07:00 PM
It would be nice to hqve regular updates on your readings as I know most of us will want to know how the tank performs with its monthly water changes.
What a fantastic idea - it would be great to actually see this / a Walstad-type approach happening in practice - so much more meaningful and less "dry" than reading a book on it.

What sort of readings would you like to see @Matt? The ammonia is read constantly (by my Seneye) but if I get things right, it will only show variation when I add new fish.
I'm hoping to eventually balance my fish numbers and plants so that the nitrate is constant and doesn't increase or decrease between water changes.
For me, I'd love to just see the weekly ammonia, nitrate and nitrite readings, even if just as some sort of reassurance that "wow, that approach really does work in practice (as far as ammonia/nitrate/nitrite is concerned anyway) and I'm getting to live through / witness it as it occurs". While I know I could never succeed in it myself given my dire plant-keeping skills, and given that it would be typical that an adverse event would occur in my own tank if I delayed a weekly water change by a few days, it would be great to see it working in practice by someone else (who has the confidence to do so based on their previous experience), in "real time" so to speak.  :D
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 22, 2017, 08:12:20 PM
@fcmf  just to be clear what I'm doing is NOT the Walstead approach. I do have her book and it is interesting, but I have never managed to actually read it all. It is as close to a chemistry text book as I have tried to read since leaving school and after reading some sections several times and still not understanding it, I accepted that my understanding would never be more than just high level and not detailed enough to implement properly.

I guess when my tank was neglected, it was as close to the Walstead method as I'm ever likely to get (but that wasn't really intentional). What I'm aiming for is very much middle of the ground. I am using the idea of setting up a balance between plants and livestock and I guess a light touch of the principals of the Walstead method to enable my tank maintenance regime to fit around my lifestyle. I am researching plants and fish that would be compatible with that and my water conditions and essentially hoping to create a micro environment. (Not dis-similar to what @Littlefish did with her river tank.)

Oh, and I should add that it's not going to start just yet. I've still got 2/3 of my tank with too much substrate! Because taking out the substrate and replanting requires approximately 2x100l water changes in fairly quick succession, I have to set aside quite a bit chunk of time. Which isn't easily done.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on November 22, 2017, 08:20:00 PM
I'd love to just see the weekly ammonia, nitrate and nitrite readings

This is what I was thinking of too :)

@Sue would hardness be affected by less frequent water changes too?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on November 22, 2017, 08:28:32 PM
Only in one circumstance.

If water evaporates between water changes, the temptation is to top up the water in the tank using tap water. Doing this will slowly increase the hardness because while water evaporates, the minerals that cause hardness don't. With every addition of top up tap water you are adding more minerals to the tank.
Regular topping up should be done with pure water - RO, distilled, rainwater (if it is safe) - though once every blue moon topping up can be done with tap water. Open topped tanks particularly need regular topping up.

Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 22, 2017, 09:15:27 PM
If topping up caused the hardness to increase, would that also affect the pH? My understanding is that those minerals that increase the hardness also act as pH buffers.

Would that explain why over the neglected period, the pH of my tank increased slightly? (Less than 1 unit) And is coming down gradually with the big water changes.

I've not got my new hardness test kit yet (its in the post), but comparing my tap water and my tank water again is one of the things I need to do. My water company declares my tap water as very soft, and I'm sure it used to be only soft.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on November 22, 2017, 09:51:36 PM
pH, GH and KH are all tied up together. If your tank hadn't been planted I would have expected the pH to drop because nitrate would have built up and nitrate is acidic; and with soft water the KH would have been used up quickly allowing the pH to fall.
But you did have plants, and a lot of them, so they would have used the ammonia and no nitrate would have been made. The small amount of KH in your tap water could have been enough to buffer the other acidic things in the tank that the fish excreted.

During the neglected period, did you add anything to the tank, or have any limestone/shells/coral in the tank?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 22, 2017, 10:17:55 PM
I've got quite a lot of bogwood, but that's been in the tank from the beginning. I have added some large grey pebbles. I can't remember when I added them, but it could have been just before the period of neglect. I can't see that they have eroded at all.

I did top up a couple times, though it was between 5-10 litres in total (and probably the lower end of that range). And my tap water doesn't seem to really have many minerals in it.

When I was dosing the plants, I used calcium nitrate, but haven't used that for a long time.

The pH clearly has a daily cycle, but it does gradually increase. I'm only talking about 0.05 - 0.1 unit over maybe 3 weeks and can only see it because of the accuracy of the Seneye.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on November 23, 2017, 09:08:05 AM
The calcium nitrate would have increase GH - that's mainly calcium with some magnesium and other metals in trace amounts. So if you were not doing many water changes, that calcium you had added would stay there and this would affect the pH.

But I can't explain the current very slow rise in pH over time. pH is likely to change over 24 hours after the water being run, but not in a tank that's been standing for weeks.
I can only suggest you monitor it to the end of the year and see what happens durin g thast time.



Silly question - does the Seneye have to be recalibrated at intervals?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 23, 2017, 09:26:54 AM
There is the ability to 'trim' the Seneye readings, but I don't know about calibrating. I don't know how I would start doing that. But, the slides only last about 30 days and then need replacing. It is the slides that contain the pH and ammonia tests. From what I can see (without destructive investigation!) the ammonia and pH are like test strips with an optical reader.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 23, 2017, 09:28:45 AM
I'm going to copy the above comment in my post about my Seneye. Then that post can be a comprehensive review of using a Seneye.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on November 23, 2017, 10:03:03 AM
I know that electric pH probes do need calibrating, but I didn't know if Seneyes did. I've just looked on tier website and they say
Quote
With a seneye device you should not need to use calibration as the replacement seneye+ slide does this.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on November 23, 2017, 09:17:56 PM
Hmmm, whilst this does count technically as a 'single point calibration'...

The slide may be manufactured to a high degree of precision so that it displays accurately the right colour for the right pH which the probe in the Seneye is looking for. But the probe itself may drift with time. Like our eyes get worse with age, the probe will start to read differently over time.

That said this will normally only happen over a very long period of time (not a week!).

The proper way to calibrate a probe is to use solutions of a known e.g. pH and see what the probe reads and adjust it at two points so take a reading with a solution at pH4 and at pH9 for example and ensure the probe reads 4 exactly and 9 exactly so all values inbetween should also read accurately.

Anyway... for the level of accuracy were after in the hobby Seneyes approach is fine... So you can ignore my rant!!

But I'll carry on anyway...  :isay:

We are interested in changes in pH more than the exact pH value.  For example  Seneye will tell you that your pH is changing rapidly as an indicator of something going wrong in the tank. It will also tell you if your fish are compatible by telling you the "reasonably precise" pH level.  If a fish is compatible with a pH range from 6.5 to 8.  And the Seneye says it's 7.3 you know you are good to go. If it says 7.9 you are a risk.  The fish will not suddenly die at 8.1 but it's life may be shortened, however this will aslo be the case at 7.9 just not by as much. As an opposing example, water companies test pH with dual calibrated instruments because they have to deliver water between two defined values. So in the above example if the pH was recorded at 8.1 they could be fined by their regulators... as such they want to be sure it's 8.1 exactly and not 7.99999 meaning they are within their limits.

I feel like I've got my rant out now  :isay:
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 23, 2017, 10:08:00 PM
 :rotfl:
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 23, 2017, 10:36:30 PM
Sorry @Matt for laughing at your rant.  :-[

So my last water change was on the 5th November. The peak pH seems to be between 7pm and 10pm and on the 6th was 7.56. This evening the pH was 7.80. So an increase in 0.24 over 17 days. (I'm not entirely sure if I would have picked this up with a liquid test)

I know that I am still "deep cleaning" my tank, so could it be a hangover of neglect?

The other thing that changed at last water change was the addition of more plants. And some algae growth.

Just thinking about it, I think the Seneye does have the ability for multi point calibration. On the page where I can 'trim' the values, it appears to have a sliding scale. Actually, looking at it again, it isn't multi point. The sliding scale is just the GUIs way of displaying the 'trim'.

Out of interest, the 3 things that can be trimmed are temp, pH and NH3.

Could it be the balance of CO2? In that the plants and fish don't produce as much CO2 as the plants use up in the light? Therefore the plants gradually use up the CO2 that was in the tap water. Because I have so many plants, I do have the filter outlet set for minimum surface agitation. Or would all the CO2 off gas in a 24hr period?

I feel some tap water tests coming on...
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on November 24, 2017, 07:04:24 AM
@Helen just to let you know that I have previously tested my tap water over a period of days and there was a difference.
When performing my water tests with the API test kit I would run a tap water "control" to help with colour comparisons. I was concerned with the pH results as the tap water was showing a result of around 7.0, whilst my tanks were showing a pH of 8.0 - 8.4. Without fully understanding the situation I thought it was something that I was doing with the tanks, started to panic, and followed that with multiple water changes on all tanks.
After taking a glass of tap water and testing it over a 3 day period, and discussing results on this forum, I think we came to the conclusion that, as I'm in a hard water area (17GH) the water company probably added CO2 to bring the pH to neutral at the tap. Bearing in mind that a glass doesn't have a large surface area, or water movement, it is likely that water in the tank would lose CO2 at a faster rate.
I think it's useful to be aware of what happens with your own tap water, but I hope that my experiences with mine helps a little.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 24, 2017, 07:29:10 AM
Thanks @Littlefish . Could you link that conversation for me, please?

My tank pH isn't changing much. 0.24 is one colour band on most liquid test kits.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on November 24, 2017, 09:22:39 AM
What happens to the pH reading when you start a new slide? Comparing readings from the same time of day, do the new slide readings continue on from the old one, or do they start from a different value?

I'm wondering if the readings 'drift' upwards during the lifetime of a slide.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on November 24, 2017, 09:20:35 PM
I think its this one
https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-advice/changing-ph-in-tanks/ (https://forums.thinkfish.co.uk/general-fishkeeping-advice/changing-ph-in-tanks/)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 25, 2017, 02:25:19 PM
It's difficult to tell, but I think the trend continues. It doesn't help that I had a few days after the slide ran out before I put the new one in.

Edit: I should have said that the trace below shows the last week's readings.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 25, 2017, 02:31:11 PM
The pH seems to almost directly follows the lighting pattern. The first peak is about lunchtime, just before the lights go out for the siesta. And the tank is in the lounge, so the evening peak is higher because we usually have the lounge lights on (additional background lighting)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on November 25, 2017, 02:37:02 PM
That is what I would expect in a planted tank. The pH drops to its lowest just before light reaches the tank. It increases when the tank lights come on for their first period, then drops as they enter the off period, but not as low as during the night.. When the lights come on for the second time, the pH rises again. Once the tank and room lights go out, the pH drops to its lowest point just before it gets light again next day.
When the tank lights are on, the plants take up CO2 so the pH rises; when all the lights are off, plants do not take up CO2 so the CO2 level in the tank increases and the pH falls.

The only mysterious thing is the very slight increase day on day.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on November 25, 2017, 02:47:59 PM
The only thing I can think of is that my tank is no more than 20% stocked with fish at the moment. And that the consumption of CO2 during lit hours exceeds it's generation during lights off.

If that is the case, the trend should change as I increase my stock.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on November 25, 2017, 02:49:57 PM
Thanks @Matt for linking to the thread where I was having problems with my pH. It saves me finding it.  :)

@Helen it will be interesting to see if the readings stabilise as you stock your tank further.

Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 12, 2018, 11:29:55 PM
So I'd like to start buying new fish this weekend.  :fishy1:

But I'm a bit worried about the pH of my tank. It is supposed to be neutral to slightly acidic (and all the fish I have chosen are suitable for this), but it is currently 8.1 - 8.2.

I plan to do all the water tests that I have tomorrow (Nitrate, P, K, GH, KH, 6 in 1 test strip that includes pH, nitrate and both hardness).

I suspect that the high pH is due to lack of CO2 (and Kh buffering), because the pH variation with lighting has more or less disappeared. But how do I check this? I have a CO2 kit, but I've not used it for at least a couple years, so I'm not sure how to check it works (properly) and am slightly worried about causing a pH crash if my Kh turns out to be low (which I suspect, but can confirm tomorrow).

I will post test results, and then ask for suggestions, I guess.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 01:11:43 PM
So some test results:

Tank water
pH 7.0 - 7.5
Nitrate 10 (a little higher, but no where near as high as 25, which is the next colour on the chart)
GH 107ppm
KH 72ppm
Phosphate 1mg/l
Potassium 20mg

Rested de-chlorinated water
GH 54ppm
KH 36-54ppm

The fact that the 3 macro nutrients are as high as they are, suggests to me that my plants aren't growing. So something else is the limiting factor. This supports my theory of low CO2.

What is interesting to me is that the hardness in the tank is higher than that of my tap water. I do have a lot of small snail shells in the tank, could these be the source, or do I need to test my rocks?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on January 13, 2018, 01:44:43 PM
It could be the snail shells but I would still test the rocks. It is worth knowing everything there is to know about tank decor  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 13, 2018, 01:49:07 PM
I agree with Sue.
Fluctuations in mineral content could have a negative impact on your fish if you end up performing larger/less frequent water changes.
Best to investigate & resolve now before you put anything else in the tank.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 01:57:23 PM
Do I test the rocks by dripping kitchen vinegar on them? Or some other way?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 13, 2018, 02:17:41 PM
The vinegar test is what I've done before.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 05:12:20 PM
No fizzing at all from the vinegar test.

I got my CO2 diffuser out - it's going to need some significant scrubbing!  :-[
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 13, 2018, 05:54:30 PM
What else is in your tank?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 07:03:24 PM
I have lots of wood (that has been in my tank from the beginning). The substrate is Eco complete and small gravel. And I have lots of plants.

I do have several years accumulation of snail shells. I think my kuhlis eat the snails so I very rarely have snail problems.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on January 13, 2018, 07:34:40 PM
It would be interesting to see how quickly the hardness increases following a water change...

Are you adding any chemicals to the tank other than dechlorinator?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 13, 2018, 09:57:49 PM
Do you top up evaporated water from you tank, or only ever do water changes?
I'm wondering if you are having some evaporation issues, which may cause problems.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 10:24:37 PM
I'm not adding any fertilisers at the moment. I wanted the tank to settle after all the rearranging so that I could get a baseline from which to work out the correct amounts of any required supplements.

During the period of neglect I topped up evaporation once (about 5l in 170l).

The amount of water in my tank has increased from 170l (measured at initial setup) to 220l (estimated) with all the substrate removal. Does that count?

I am contemplating doing a couple large water changes tomorrow to see if that makes a difference. Think I've run out of time this evening.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 10:33:15 PM
It's just occurred to me that I could have an evaporation issue and not necessarily know about it. My tank has a footprint of 120cm X 45cm, so I could lose a litre and not necessarily notice unless it was at exactly the right level at the top of the tank that a couple mm change in depth showed.

So what can I do about it? A regular large (>50%) water change?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 10:35:57 PM
If I do go down the route of large water changes, are there any limits so I don't cause my existing fish distress?

Should I do a larger than normal water change before getting at new fish?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 13, 2018, 10:52:03 PM
I only mentioned evaporation because it's a problem I have on my betta tank (which doesn't have a lid). I top up with RO in between water changes.
Pure water evaporates and leaves the minerals, so topping up with tap water would increase hardness over a period of time.
I'm just throwing ideas out there and I'm certain that the quantities that you are talking about wouldn't cause problems.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 10:54:46 PM
I've just wondered if perhaps it is less of a problem than I initially thought.

My hardness in my tank is 107ppm (moderately soft), in comparison with the hardness of my tap water at 54ppm (soft). Both are easily within the preferred range of all my current fish.

It is the pH that might be an issue, but I keep coming back to lack of CO2, as I have no better ideas.

Do I have enough buffering (Kh = 72ppm) to avoid a potential pH crash if I add CO2?

If my tap water is softer than my tank water, would there be much benefit in using RO to top up?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 11:07:07 PM
Looking again at water quality in so much detail has got me thinking about my potential stock list again. There are a couple potential clashes that I'd like other opinions on.

Kuhli loaches and BN Plec with a pair of kribensis.
Kuhlis and the BN Plec get on ok as they've got their own favourite spaces (Bertie claims the caves, the kuhlis like the bogwood/ crypts). If I increase the number of kuhlis and introduce a pair of Kribensis, am I risking a clash over caves? What's the minimum number of new cave areas that i would need to introduce to avoid conflict? Should I limit the number of kuhlis I increase to? (Currently proposed to be 14)

According to Seriously Fish, 5 band barbs have a max hardness of 90ppm and Dwarf Rainbow fish have a minimum hardness of 90ppm. Although my hardness seems to be around this, in reality it isn't ever going to be spot on 90ppm. Do I need to find alternative choices? (Neither of these species are in my tank yet)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 13, 2018, 11:07:56 PM
Are you testing your tap water straight after taking it from the tap?
The pH of my tap water changes over a 3 day period. It is 7.0 - 7.2 straight from tap, then increases to around 8.2 over around 3 days. This will also be reflected in your tank, as it is in mine.
I have quite hard water, so don't know what sort of impact the changes would have on your tank. To avoid large(ish) fluctuations in your water parameters smaller/more frequent water changes would be better.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 11:11:54 PM
I had a couple litres of de-chlorinated water left over from my last water change (last week). So I used this as the tap water sample. Could that have skewed the result? (I remembered you saying before about the significant change in the pH of your tap and tank water @Littlefish )
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 13, 2018, 11:17:55 PM
There are also discussions to be had regarding the parameters listed for specific fish, and whether they were wild caught or commercially bred (in different water conditions), etc.
Unfortunately it can be a complex discussion, and I've had a couple of glasses of wine tonight, so I may have to pick this one up again tomorrow.

Just saw your other post.
My previous discussions with Sue and others concluded with us thinking that perhaps the water company added CO2 a source to ensure that pH was neutral at the tap. The would gas off over a couple of days, revealing the true pH of the water. I would have expected that dechlorinated water from the previous week would have shown the "true" pH, which may still be lower than your tank pH.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 13, 2018, 11:37:39 PM
Thanks @Littlefish .

Surely after wine is the best time to have deep conversations?  :cheers:

Argh. I so want to buy more fish, but don't want to endanger them if my tank isn't ready.  :fishy1: :vcross:
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on January 14, 2018, 06:50:59 AM
I would suggest you do a large water change @Helen (and in answer to your previous question this means no more than 50%) then give the tank a few days to settle and see what your test results are. If they have changed since your previous results, give it another week and test again.  Again, see how they have changed. We want to get to a point where we understand a) what's causing the hardness to increase in your tank, and b) what the stable hardness level is likely to be once things settle down in the tank.  The above plan should give us a good feel for both.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 14, 2018, 01:01:41 PM
You are doing the right thing by ensuring you have your tank right before getting your fish.
Patience isn't my strong point, and I was very frustrated when I was in a similar situation.
Hopefully another week won't be too long.  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 14, 2018, 02:04:11 PM
I changed 105l this morning.  :yikes:
I can't see me ever changing more than 50% of the tank water unless under dire emergency. It was quite hard work.

While I was doing it, I got to thinking about all our recent discussions. Over the Christmas break, we've had a lot of children in the house. My kids know not to touch my fish tank, but I realised that young children seem rather fascinated with the magnets that hold my Seneye in place. And so it gradually moved up the tank, as far as I could get it. I have now moved it back to what I think is the most sensible location - in the middle (horizontally and vertically) of the short side of the tank (furthest from the filter).

I know position in the tank will affect the temperature readings, but does it affect any of the other readings? Also the water samples I did the tests on came from the top few cms of the tank water.

And then I got to thinking about what you had said @Littlefish  about the water companies adding CO2 to reduce pH to neutral. If my problem is lack of CO2, then any additional CO2 can only be good for my tank. But also, if I am concerned about pH swings from large water changes, then I really need to know the pH of the water when it goes into my tank (rather than when it has had time to off gas).
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 14, 2018, 03:00:24 PM
Large water changes are hard work.

I'm fairly certain that quite some time ago someone posted about location of water samples, and said that they took samples from deeper in the tank. Perhaps @Sue will remember this (I think it was posted by ExremeOne/Simon, perhaps I'll be able to find it).

I also remember someone mentioning that they ran off several containers of water a few days prior to their water changes, to allow time to gassing off and reaching room temperature, but I can;t remember if that was here or at a shop. Sorry I'm being a bit vague today, I'm blaming it in the wine last night.  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on January 14, 2018, 03:45:01 PM
Leaving water to stand for days is one way of gassing off chlorine, but that doesn't work if the water company uses chloramine.

In hard water areas, water companies often add something, usually CO2, to reduce the pH and help prevent limescale build up in the mains pipes. In places with very soft acidic water, they add some thing to raise the pH to prevent corrosion of metal pipes. Both of these gas off, and the pH reverts to its untreated level. So leaving water standing for at least a day will avoid pH swings after a water change.
But there are other considerations - do you have a childproof place to leave 105 litres water to degas? And if you do, how easy would it be to transport the water from this place to your tank?


But this only affects pH and not hardness. The only way hardness increases is by adding calcium and/or magnesium to the water (hardness being a measure of calcium and magnesium) If your tank hardness is higher than your tap hardness, something in the tank is adding calcium and/or magnesium. This could be topping up with tap water between water changes, calcareous decor dissolving, or something in your new substrate.
The vinegar test is not 100% reliable. The better, but more time consuming, way is to put each piece of decor into a small container of water. Test the hardness as soon as it is put in the container, and again after 1 week. And swirl the water up before taking the sample to make sure it is thoroughly mixed up. If there is any substrate left over, test that as well.

It is also worth doing some pH testing. Run a large glassful of water and test it immediately. Then again after 1 day, 1 week, and as many times during that week as you feel like doing. And test the decor-containing water after a week as well as the hardness.

If we can pin down what is causing the tank levels, we can work out a way of coping with it.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 14, 2018, 10:31:46 PM
I definitely don't have the ability to store more than 10l of new water. It pretty much comes out of the tap and goes into the tank. 10l at a time, dechlorinator added as the "in" bucket fills up. I lug "in" bucket halfway across the house, up in my step and slowly pour it into the tank so as not to disturb the substrate.

The only new substrate is the play sand, which was washed till the water was clear with removed tank water (in the "out" bucket). The increase in pH trend started before the sand went in and didn't seem to be affected by it. But I did wash too much sand and have kept hold of the excess.

The fine gravel substrate came out of the tank, was sieved and then went back in.

I think I might have to buy another pH test kit. At the moment I have my Seneye and a 6 in 1 test strip (which I think is pretty awful!). So I'm struggling to get a reliable reading on my tap water.

In the past I have added calcium to the tank in the form of calcium nitrate. But not for many months and I have changed a lot of water since then.

How accurate are the hardness tests? I ask because the difference between the two readings is 3 drops of reagent for GH and 1-2 drops for KH.

And lastly, I have to say thank you for all your support that I was doing the right think micro analysing my water parameters. But I caved. This afternoon a dozen five band barbs joined my tank.  :-[  :fishy1: They are a similar size to my harlies at the moment, so I think they are a total of about 36cm.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 14, 2018, 11:01:28 PM
From my own experience I can safely say that I nearly disappeared up my own bottom trying to work out whar was going on with my water. I spent days testing glasses if tap water over several days, checking what decor/hardscape materials I had in my tanks, and drawing lines on post-its (other brands of sticky note are available) to monitor water evaporation.
Seriously, you can drive yourself nuts over this.

Nice choice of fish, pics required when they are settled.  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 14, 2018, 11:09:17 PM
Thank you @Littlefish  :cheers:
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on January 15, 2018, 07:00:39 AM
I like fivebands but Mrs Matt doesn't... so I have fish jealousy right now!!

Pictures should really be put in the forum rules  :cheers:
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on January 15, 2018, 10:00:28 AM

Pictures should really be put in the forum rules  :cheers:

 :rotfl:
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on January 15, 2018, 10:16:51 AM
To be honest, as long as your tank water is stable - the GH is not constantly increasing - I wouldn't worry too much.

I use buckets to refill my tank, though because of the dose rate of the dechlorinator it is 9.5 litres per bucket. But i don't pour it in from the bucket, I put that on a stool and ladle the water with a jug and through a home made colander which stops the water stream from making a hole in the sand. The colander is a 170g, Total yogurt pot with as many holes in the bottom as I could make with a knitting needle without them merging into one big hole. Using this will also aerate the new water slightly, driving out any of these temporary pH alterers (not much but a bit)

Hmmm, that calls for a test to see just how much effect next time I do a water change ......
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 22, 2018, 01:46:43 PM
I've just ordered / reserved some kuhli loaches from my local MA. What are thoughts on 14 kuhli loaches with a pair of kribs in my 240l planted tank? I intend to include some more caves in the tank, but my main concern is that if 14 kuhlis is a good number for the tank, is it too many with the kribs?

Would that many substrate "hunters" be too stressful for a breeding pair of Kribensis?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on January 22, 2018, 08:30:24 PM
14 khuli loaches is rather a lot, not necessarily a problem provided you have the right foods to feed them. It would very likely become a problem if the kribs bred though as they would aggressively defend the eggs and I'm not sure khuli loaches would understand this territorality - I know corys definitely don't and will just keep trying until they get beaten up.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 22, 2018, 10:42:31 PM
That is exactly what I am worried about @Matt. The kuhlis are staying on the shopping list, it is just whether I could alleviate the problem by having fewer kuhlis. If so, how many?

Or do I need to take kribs off my shopping list? They would be the last fish to go in the tank, so are a way off.

How much could I influence the kribs territory? Would a strategically placed cave help, or would they be more likely just to pick a different one? That said, my two current kuhlis seem to be enjoying the whole of the tank. The refurb seems to have made it all more to their liking.

The other issue, that has me thinking twice about getting even the kuhlis this weekend is that the pH in my tank is still going down. The maximum readings over the last week have been (all at 10pm):
(Barbs introduced Sunday afternoon)
Monday: 8.06
Tuesday: 8.16
Wednesday: 8.03
Thursday: 8.03
Friday: 7.96
Saturday: 7.92
Sunday: 7.92
Monday (today): 7.76

At which point do I start to worry and what can I do about it? The pH of my tap water is approximately the same as the tank pH today.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on January 23, 2018, 07:15:46 AM
OK so a couple of things occurred to me this morning about the pH drop you are experiencing... @Sue will need to check my understanding of all this because chemistry is not my strong suit!

Filter bacteria need carbonates to grow. The amount of carbonates are measured through measuring water hardness. So as filter bacteria grow they reduce water hardness. Water hardness is partly responsible for stabilising pH (this is the bit I don't understand but I know to be true). Further to this as filter bacteria do their thing they produce hydrogen ions (again why... I don't know) this lowers the pH of the water (pH I believe is a measure of hydrogen ions). So a double whammy on reducing pH

You have added fish recently so I'm assuming more filter bacteria are growing and depleting the water carbonates and hardness.  There are more filter bacteria producing hydrogen ions and all this  is acting to lower the pH.  Now I would assume that if all of this is true them you would see a drop in the hardness levels in your tank... have you?

I would also assume that a water change would be the way to raise the hardness... is you tap water harder than your tank water?

I also know that @fcmf  has a small piece of tufa rock I think it is in her filter to increase hardness and buffer pH which could be a longer term solution.

Phew... does any of that ring true @Helen ?

Back to khulis and kribs... strategic caves is a good shout, though if the khulis go everywhere that may not help... I wonder could the cave be elevated in some way to detract the khulis but not the kribs? I don't know why I'm going to say 6-8 khulis sounds right but I am, it's an opinion based in no logic!!

Oh dear I'm not sure I'm helping much   :-[
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on January 23, 2018, 11:18:23 AM
Carbonates are measured by KH. I don't think the bacteria themselves have much impact on the amount of carbonates, though they may use more when increasing the numbers of them; when they are just keeping the population stable (some dying, new ones replacing them) there should be little impact.

In a cycled tank, there are undetectable levels of ammonia and nitrite but nitrate is constantly being made. This is acidic - unless something stops it, it lowers the pH. Other chemicals produced by fish, plants, micro-organisms of all sorts are also acidic. These chemicals are waste products, hormones and so on - remember that fish communicate with each other by chemical signals.

When acids, bases and salts dissolve in water they dissociate into ions.

Carbonate is CO32- , carbonic acid is H2CO3 It dissociates like this:
H2CO3 -> 2H+ + CO32-

and it can also lose just 1 hydrogen ion to make bicarbonate
H2CO3 -> H+ + HCO3-


The reactions above are reversible; they go backwards as well. In fact they are continually going backwards and forwards but there are always the same number as H2CO3 and as ions.
However, if something happens to disrupt the balance, things change. Add more H+ to the right hand side and it pushes the reaction over to the left. So when hydrogen ions are made by nitrate production and all those chemicals secreted by things in the tank it converts more carbonate ions into carbonic acid molecules. This reaction removes the free hydrogen ions from the water so the amount of them stays constant and the pH stays constant.

With low KH there isn't much carbonate so all of it ends up being converted quite quickly. Once it is all converted to H2CO3, there is nothing left to remove hydrogen ions so they build up and the pH falls.
When the KH is high, there is so much that it would take months for it all to be converted. And the fish would suffer from Old Tank Syndrome well before all the carbonate had been used.

Water changes remove H2CO3 and put more carbonate in the water. Even with very low KH, regular large water changes are enough to stop the pH falling.




EDIT TO ADD

When carbon dioxide builds up in the water it forms more carbonic acid. This pushed the equation from left to right, which means there are more hydrogen ions so the pH drops.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 23, 2018, 12:50:17 PM
Thank you @Sue and @Matt for your comprehensive responses.

A few quick replies.
6-8 kuhlis works well with me. So that is what I will go for this weekend. I can always get more instead of kribs if my plans change following further research. I will add extra caves later, so there's no issue with territories being marked before all fish are in.

Water conditions in my tank at the moment (based on yesterday's readings) are pretty much the same as my tap water. (Except for pH, this has been more or less the case since I changed 105l on Sunday morning before adding fish) 
Nitrate about 5ppm.
GH 5 drops
KH 2-3 drops
Max pH has dropped from 8.16 to 7.76

It could just be that the addition of fish is causing my tank to stabilise and is undoing the still unexplained increase in pH.

I will keep monitoring and do a large water change if the pH looks like it isn't stabilising. If that solves the problem, I will start to consider additives.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on January 27, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
So the water conditions started to stabilise. I still have the daily variation in pH, but it is back to reflecting the lighting regime. Ie pH at its highest at 10pm, when the lights go off, and at minimum at 7am just before the lights come on, with a noticeable dip during siesta time.

I did a 40l water change last night and changed the slide in my Seneye. With hindsight, I shouldn't have done these at the same time. There was a slight jump in pH, which I think was due to the slide change. I don't think it would be noticeable with a standard / liquid test, because it's either side of a colour reading. (Ie, both readings would look like 7.8 )

So off to the fish shop I went this morning. Sadly the kuhlis that I was going to get didn't survive the lfs quarantine. 🙁 So no more kuhlis. So I decided instead to get the next fish on my list - neon dwarf rainbow fish. 9 little beauties are currently acclimatising. Hopefully I've got 5 female and 4 males. In the shop tank it was easy to see the difference between the red and yellow fins. But not once they were being caught and put in the bag. So I guess I'll have to wait till the tank lights come back on to check. In the dark tank , they already look like they're starting to colour up, but I'm not sure that's just a trick of the light.
 :fishy1: :fishy1:



Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on February 01, 2018, 10:29:16 PM
So the pH seems to have taken about 3 days to settle back to where it was pre slide change and fish introduction. I'm not entirely sure which caused which affect, but I suspect that the slide change had the more significant effect (that had 12-15 hours to do it's thing before the additional fish joined the party)

I am really impressed with how quickly the rainbows are colouring up. They're only about 3cm, so I was expecting them to have to grow quite a bit more before I got the gorgeous colours in the photo on the profile. Clearly not there yet, but they are sufficiently coloured to hint at looking like their profile photo!

Need to do more hardness and macro nutrients tests at the weekend. I am also hoping to get a 10% water change in so I can monitor it's affect.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on February 02, 2018, 06:10:20 PM
Great to hear that things are settling down and that your rainbows are settling in so quickly.  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 14, 2018, 09:05:02 AM
So, current tank inhabitants:
6 harlequin rasbora
5 espeii rasbora
9 dwarf rainbow fish
12 fiveband barbs
2 kuhli loaches
1 BN Plec

Cc has me at 46% stocked.

I'd quite like to buy more fish. The plan had been to get more kuhlis at this stage, but I'm struggling with that a bit. I'm still interested in kribensis, but do want them to go in after the kuhlis.

So I'm looking at increasing the fish in the water column. Again the plan had been to double the number of rasboras, but I'm now wondering whether another, different coloured shoal would be more interesting. They need to be mid to surface swimmers and ideally no bigger than about 5cm.

I've had a quick look at emperor and penguin tetras, but am still researching their suitability. Any other ideas?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 14, 2018, 11:16:51 AM
After a bit more research, I don't think emperor tetras would be suitable for my tank.

But I've had a look at sparkling gouramis. Any thoughts? @Matt I think I read that you've had them in the past?

In terms of space in my tank, I'd be able to add about a dozen fish that size. But I read they prefer smaller groups, so what would be an ideal number? Not totally sure they're the right fish, but at the moment they seem to 'tick all the boxes'.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on April 14, 2018, 07:29:31 PM
Gourami won't form a schoal, rather you will have largely individual fish which interact with the scape more than swim in the open... Im not sure from your original that they are quite what you are after...  have you looked at rummy nose tetras? They are similar colour with some great colour on the head and tail and one of the best schoalers you can get.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 14, 2018, 08:00:43 PM
Thanks @Matt . You're right, I do want a shoaling fish so sparkling gouramis won't be right. That's a shame, they looked nice fish. I think they'd get a bit lost in my tank though, if they don't shoal.

I have looked at several tetras - penguins, Black neons and x-rays. I'd not looked at rummy nose until you suggested it. I'm not sure rummy nose are the colour I'm after - I have a lot of red in my tank.  ;)

The thing that's making me hesitate about tetras is that they're all south American fish. The perfect fish would be an Asian one, as that's what my current shoaling fish are.

But I've not completely ruled out tetras yet.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on April 14, 2018, 08:47:29 PM
How small do you want to go? If tiny (15 to 20 mm) would be OK, how about Microdevario kubotai (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/microdevario-kubotai/) These are green fish from Thailand and Myanmar, so they'd fit 'no more red' and Asia. And they like soft water. They are sold as green rasboras or green tetras.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 14, 2018, 09:08:03 PM
Thanks @Sue . They look interesting. I will have to do about more research to check that they're not too small to be picked on by my other fish.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: fcmf on April 14, 2018, 10:31:01 PM
I saw them a few months ago and again a couple of weeks ago in the LFS. Both lots are much more the size of neon tetras than as small as Sue's experience - and I've read that this size variation is commonplace on quite a few sites. Incidentally, last time round they were described as 'neon yellow rasboras' although actually luminous green https://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/databank/neon-greenyellow-rasbora-. [The term 'green tetra' may be confusing as there are several which might fit that bill - green-coloured tetras https://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/databank/rathbuns-bloodfin-green-fire-tetra and blue-green-coloured tetras http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/paracheirodon-simulans.]
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 14, 2018, 10:48:26 PM
Thanks @fcmf for the links. I buy all my fish from my local MA, so it is nice to know that they stock them and also what name they give them.

Presumably there's a big variation in size because there's more than one species that looks the same?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 14, 2018, 11:10:57 PM
I think I need to go and see them in the fish shop.

They do look attractive option, but I am concerned about their size. I think they should be ok with my shoaling fish - the dwarf rainbows seem to be on the limit of size and my harlequin and espeii rasboras are actually recommended by seriously fish as suitable companions. But if i put celestial pearl danios or axelrodi rasboras (both a similar size) into the CC, I get red warnings about them and both kuhlis and kribensis.

I don't think the kuhlis would be a threat because their mouths are actually really small.  And I don't have kribs yet. Also they live in different parts of the tank, as I understand. But one of the attractions of kribensis is to have something a bit different and bigger than the rest of my fish (as a sort of specimen species). So I'm not sure about going smaller than the espeii rasbora.

Apart from tetras not being Asian fish, any thoughts on penguins, Black neons and x-rays ?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on April 15, 2018, 06:17:25 AM
I saw penguin tetra in my LFS last week and was really taken by them, they were tight schoqlers and really beautiful fish  :D. I think they get a bit bigger than xrays/neons though...
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 15, 2018, 08:23:38 AM
Thank you.

Having found this article I will persevere with finding an Asian shoaler!

https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/blog/articles/2016/11/18/social-acclimation-the-next-thing-in-fishkeeping

It's also made me wary of increasing my existing shoal sizes - of dwarf rainbows and harlequin rasbora! :o
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on April 15, 2018, 09:05:39 AM
I have penguin tetras in one of my south american tanks. They are great fish, and they hang around in a slightly nose down position, which is a bit different. However, they are relatively large, both in size and personality. They can be a bit boisterous, which can have an impact on other fish in the tank.
I think that your suggestion of finding an asian shoaler makes a lot of sense.  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 15, 2018, 09:22:00 AM
This is looking like a good contender:
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/brevibora-dorsiocellata/

I thought it was a recommendation from here, but can't find the comment! Finding it might be the challenge. EDIT: I've just found it on MA website: https://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/databank/emerald-eye-rasbora

I will also have a look at the green rasboras.  ;)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on April 15, 2018, 09:39:03 AM
How about ricefish?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 15, 2018, 09:54:51 AM
Just reading about ricefish and found this:
"was the first vertebrate animal to mate in space during the mid-1990s"
 :yikes:

Not really a requirement for my tank!  :rotfl:
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 15, 2018, 10:01:37 AM
There's loads of ricefish @Matt . :yikes: It's going to take me a while to look through them to find one that's the right size and water conditions. Water hardness might be an issue.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: fcmf on April 15, 2018, 11:06:34 AM
I have good international relations in my tank - x-ray tetras and harlequin rasboras.

The x-ray tetras' daytime is probably split 25% in each of the following modes, from early morning, late morning, afternoon, evening: the males having quite vigorous spats while the female rests elsewhere (and occasionally a harlequin joining in); a female being chased vigorously by all the males, esp through the plants; quiet times when they rest at particular "staging posts" in the tank, usually in the lower third; playing and swimming together with the harlequins, esp in the filter flow, inter-shoaling as though all one species.

The harlequins' daytime is less varied and tends to be split 50%, 25% and 25% in morning, afternoon and evening respectively as follows: quiet times whey they rest at particular "staging posts" in the tank, usually in the upper half; one male harlequin taking possession of the middle 50% of the tank, chasing anyone (irrespective of species) who enters that territory round the tank at speed and into a corner / two males (I think) displaying against each other; playing and swimming together with the x-ray tetras, esp in the filter flow, inter-shoaling as though all one species.

I suspect the afternoon behaviour of the aforementioned harlequin is just unusual, while the spat behaviour was learned from watching the x-ray tetras in which one tries to get involved occasionally.

At night, once the light goes off, there's a bit of re-positioning in which they shoal up with their respective species but a bit of manoeuvring takes place, generally resulting in the x-ray tetras at mid-level and the harlequins in the upper third ie each species slightly higher up than their daytime resting positions.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 15, 2018, 12:32:23 PM
Thanks fcmf. That is interesting about your x-ray tetras and Harlequins shoaling together. The largest shoal in my tank is a mix of harlequin and espeii rasboras.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on April 15, 2018, 03:28:20 PM
I didn't mention rice fish although I have Daisy's ricefish (Oryzias woworae) because their hardness range has 5 dH as their lower end.

I've kept M.kubotai in the past and I'd say mine were the same size as the ember tetras I had in the same tank. The biggest fish I had them with were Apistigramma cacatuoides, and the male is quite a big fish for a dwarf cichlid.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 15, 2018, 06:36:36 PM
There are 3 types of ricefish on the MA website. One is too small, one needs harder water (Daisy's) than I have and the third needs cooler water.

I'm not sure that I'll succeed finding one that fits my water parameters and size requirements. They also seem to prefer clearer water conditions (all my other fish are black water, preferring higher tannins). Ricefish seem to prefer the clean water of flooded fields.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: TopCookie on April 16, 2018, 12:22:48 AM
I'd have to give a massive +1 for Pristella Tetras (X-Ray Tetras), which are probably the favourite fish of mine to date...  I have 12 of them and they seem super peaceful and playful, sometimes shoaling with the Cardinal tetras just for the fun of it...  Great fish indeed and I'd gladly have more of them...  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 16, 2018, 02:15:36 PM
I've just been into my lfs. They had everything on my potential shopping list - except kuhlis.

The neon green rasboras (m. Kubotu) are definitely a very striking fish. Outshone the emerald eye rasboras by a mile. The fish shop had them as a max size of 3cm, which correlates with all the comments about them being a bit bigger than the 15-20mm originally mentioned. Think they are the ones for me. But I'll probably have to re-think the kribensis.

My tank will look very colourful with red, blue and green fish!!
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: TopCookie on April 16, 2018, 04:27:09 PM
Just had a look on SF...  They look really nice H...  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 16, 2018, 05:27:06 PM
The photo doesn't do them justice. They looked fabulous in the fish shop tank. Looking a bit washed out as they acclimatise in my tank.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on April 16, 2018, 08:07:40 PM
Fantastic little fish. I hope they settle well in your tank.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: fcmf on April 16, 2018, 09:05:26 PM
Great you got the microdevario kubotai. Hopefully they'll soon colour up in your tank and look as great as / even greater than in the LFS.
 :fishy1:
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 16, 2018, 10:25:51 PM
I think they may have started colouring up even before I took them out of the bag! But with the lights off and the bag floating next to green Vallis, it was difficult to tell.

But they are definitely neon now. Mr Helen asked if they are bred to be that colour.  ;)

So my tank is now fully stocked because I also bought another 6 each of harlequin and espeii rasboras.

I phoned the fish shop this morning to ask about kuhli loaches and was told that they didn't know when they'd get more in, but they weren't planning to soon. (When I was buying the fish, I chatted some more to the lady and she explained that the way they have the tanks set up, the kuhlis keep escaping through the weir into the giant sump tanks. They can't be treated for any diseases there and getting them out is so stressful it exacerbates the problem. So before she can get any kuhlis in, she has to rearrange the tank pipework and take a tank off the system).

The last couple of days I've been reading up on tank capacity calculations and the effects of plants (as well as the conversations on this forum) and it has been playing on my mind about only having 6 harlies. The harlies and the espeiis shoal together, but I get the impression that the hierarchy is determined a lot by size - which puts all the espeii at the bottom. I introduced 6 harlies and 6 espeiis to my tank when I had one harlie from the previous shoal left. Within a couple weeks one of the large harlies disappeared. I now believe he was the loser of a battle for top spot. So I wanted to increase my shoal, but was worried about doing it. And I didn't want to increase the number of harlies without increasing the espeiis.

So, when I saw that they were all in the fish shop and the harlies seemed rather small, I thought that numbers would be the best way to introduce more and do it at the same time as the microdevario kubotai.

I went into the fish shop on the way to my son's swimming lesson, so I knew it was just for looking. And then he had a snooze in the car so I had a chance to do some number crunching. I realised that I could get the 24 fish if I gave up on getting more kuhlis (and the kribensis).

The m. kubotai are all about 10-15mm with the espeiis being a similar size and the harlies probably about 20mm. So I think I've added about 40cm of fish today (I had calculated I could have up to 60cm, but I think that calc was flawed).

Anyway, adding the new inhabitants has done some very interesting things to the dynamics in the tank. Two or three of the existing harlies were chasing everyone else around - even the rainbows and barbs that are bigger than them and they've not seemed to bother before. So much so that I didn't dare turn on the second light until they all seemed to have calmed down a bit. I am just glad that my tank is so well planted because there doesn't seem to be a shortage of hiding spots. And the large bits of anubias that I cut off the other day and can't yet bring myself to throw away are doing a great job as floating plants breaking up the line of sight. They'll be staying longer!

Are microdevario kubotai considered to be dither fish? I ask because the barbs and the kuhlis seem to have come out more into the open with all the mayhem going on in the top half of the tank.

I don't know how this will all change over the next few days as things settle down, but it is certainly making for interesting watching (and a little unnerving at times). I'm wondering if I'm going to have to get my QT out of the shed tomorrow. :yikes:
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: TopCookie on April 16, 2018, 10:49:22 PM
I'm dying to ask...  what are "dither fish"...?

Also, we need some pics of the new stock Helen...  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on April 16, 2018, 10:59:28 PM
A quick Google brought up this definition:
"Dither fish are schooling, mid-water swimming fish that are used to bring hiding fishes out into the open."

I have selected the definition that best fits my understanding of a dither fish. But there were variations on the theme. And something I didn't realise, that it seems to be used a lot in relation to cichlids (as the hiding fish).

You'll have to be patient for photos. It's not easy taking a photo of a 4' tank with small fish where you can see both. Especially when half the inhabitants are experts at camouflage (and there's plenty of opportunity). Also, my phone isn't doing photos at the moment, so I have to be more organised and get a proper digital camera out, hook it up... etc etc

I hope to do a video at some point because the most interesting thing about my tank (imho) is the fish behaviours and interactions. But that requires me to also come to terms with YouTube.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: TopCookie on April 16, 2018, 11:12:50 PM
Thanks for that Helen...  I've seen the term a few times and it never sounded like it had much of a logical meaning, with trying to imagine hesitant or indecisive fish or some other such explanation, lol...   ;D

I hear ya on the YouTube thing...  Could do with sussing that one out here, too...
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Matt on April 16, 2018, 11:13:45 PM
If they have had this effect on your other fish then I would agree they are acting as a dither fish for them. I don't think there are specific dither fish as such. Any fish can act as a dither fish for another fish. There are some like hatchets which make very good dither fish... though this is mainly because they are always at the surface.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on April 17, 2018, 08:48:02 AM
Dwarf cichlids can be particularly reclusive if they think they are in danger of predators. Small shoaling fish swimming round above their heads indicate to the cichlids that there are no predators about - the shoaling fish would be #1 targets - so they know it is now safe to come out of hiding. These small shoaling fish are called dither fish.
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Littlefish on April 17, 2018, 09:05:47 AM
Change in dynamics in a tank are always fascinating. I hope that everyone settles down to a happy community.
I'm looking forward to seeing pics.  :)
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: fcmf on April 17, 2018, 06:27:49 PM
Thoroughly enjoyed the update on the tank dynamics following the new additions. Keep us posted with updates on how this progresses and, ideally, a video; incidentally, YouTube is actually really straightforward - I was pleasantly surprised at how easy/intuitive it was to use when I first used it a year or two ago (and I'm not at all tech-/IT-oriented).
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Helen on September 20, 2018, 10:22:07 PM
I don't really have space for another shoal in my tank. I'd love to get more Microdevario Kubotai or something of a similar size, but seeing as they were probably the shortest lived species I've had, they clearly weren't suited to my tank and  I don't think it's fair to get more.

So, after a bit of aspirational fish research (for after my espie rasboras have gone) I found this fish profile on seriously fish.

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/puntius-lineatus (https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/puntius-lineatus)

I am struggling to find it on the other sites I've looked at (admittedly not loads yet). It is smaller than all the other lined barbs I've seen and wondered if anyone else has come across it?
Title: Re: Restocking a slightly acidic, softer water planted tank
Post by: Sue on September 21, 2018, 09:46:43 AM
I have not come across this fish before, either in my on-line researches or in shops. I wonder just how common it is in the aquarium trade. SF does seem to contain a number of rare fish. This is one of its downsides - we find a fish that would be perfect on there but then find it isn't available  :-\