New To Fish Keeping

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Offline Resa

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2013, 02:05:17 AM »
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OK, I've been back to the fish shop today.  They have a whole rack of API stuff, so I was able to get the API 5 in 1 test strips.  My readings were as follows, (oh, forgot to say, I also got the filter activater, I tested 8 hours after putting this in.)

G.H.  180
K.H.   240
P.H.   8.0
Nitrite  0.5
Nitrate 20

Is this horrendous?  Also, what do you use for ammonia testing?  They don't seem to do that here.  I asked about the guppies, and they apparently come from a breeder about an hour away, so I'm hoping that will increase their chances of survival when I eventually get some.  They said they get fresh fish stocks in every 2 weeks.  There were certainly a lot less fish there today than there were on Saturday.
Thanks for the advice on Rafe, Sue.  I am definitely going to get him his own pad.  Looking at the aquascapes on here, I really like the one with the large grey cobbles that has lots of mossballs with the 3 or so spiky plants at the back.  Would something like this be ok for Rafe or would it not be exciting enough for him?  Also, should I put some other compatible fish in with him?
One last thing, I am considering getting a little lady betta to go in the 60 litre.  What do you think?  Would she rub along with my proposed choices alright?  By the way, they had some rather nice Bleeding Heart Tetras today, how would they mix?  thanks.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (11) - Otocinclus (2) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (7) - Dwarf Gourami (2) - Red Phantom Tetra (5) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Guppy (male) (4) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (6) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Panda Cory (6) - Otocinclus (2) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (6) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (5) - Guppy (male) (4) - Otocinclus (2) - Panda Cory (6) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2013, 09:06:33 AM »
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Strips are not very accurate, unfortunately, and as you've found they don't test for ammonia which is one of the two really important ones. Given that both France and the UK are in the EU, would it be possible to import liquid tests for ammonia (and nitrite if your shop doesn't have that either)? You won't be able to follow the couse of your cycle (however you are doing it) without an ammonia tester.

0.5 nitrite is a bit on the high side - if it is accurate. Once there are plenty bacteria in a filter, they'll take care of any nitrite in the tapwater very quickly but it would only make things worse during fish-in cycling. Though it could be the result of adding the filter activator. Test your tapwater to check where the nitrite has come from.
A lot of these filter starters do contain ammonia to start the cycle. But you won't know as you can't test for ammonia


GH at 180 (converts to 10 german degrees) is middling to slightly hard. You should be OK with everything but those fish which must have soft water or very hard water.
KH is high. The main effect of this is that it will stabilise your pH and you would find it hard to alter the pH, so don't try  ;D
pH is also high. That's the pH in the tank? Run a glass of tapwater, test straight away then leave it standing for 24 hours and test again. It's always useful to know if/how much the pH changes on standing - the tank water has been standing a while.

Bettas and spikey looking plants - fine if they are real but not if they are plastic. Bettas fins tear easily and all decor should be smooth. There is a thing called the tights test when buying decor - run an old pair of tights over it, and if they snag it's too rough. Plants should be real or silk rather than plastic with sharp edges.

Female bettas are usually easier than males, though you can get a super-aggressive one. There's still the same problem with gouramis though. Females are fine alone or in groups of at least 5. They are less aggressive than males but not non-aggressive and they form a pecking order when there's more than one of them. The theory goes: with two one will always pick on the other; with three, two will gang up on one; four is better as it's more likely two will get picked on by the top fish; five is even better for spreading aggression among several fish and so on. A group of female bettas is called a sorority.
If you do get one, please don't ever be tempted to put her in with the male.

Bleeding heart tetras may possibly fit in your tank (the profile here says a 60cm tank and Seriously Fish is not available) but a 6cm long they will take up a chunk of your stocking allowance. They would be right at the edge of their range with your pH and hardness.
It comes down to personal preference - a few larger fish or a lot of small fish. I've always been on the lots of small fish side  :)









As a complete side issue, does anyone know what's happenned to Seriously Fish? It wasn't available when I tried yesterday either........

Offline Nat

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2013, 04:07:33 PM »
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Strips are not very accurate, unfortunately, and as you've found they don't test for ammonia which is one of the two really important ones. Given that both France and the UK are in the EU, would it be possible to import liquid tests for ammonia (and nitrite if your shop doesn't have that either)? You won't be able to follow the couse of your cycle (however you are doing it) without an ammonia tester.

All the test kits are available in France. I think eBay (France) are probably the cheapest.

As a complete side issue, does anyone know what's happenned to Seriously Fish? It wasn't available when I tried yesterday either........

They are having problems with their server, but should be back soon.

Offline Resa

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2013, 04:34:56 PM »
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Hi,

Todays readings are:
G.H.    120
K.H.     240
P.H.     8.0
Nitrite     0
Nitrate  20

So not much change with most of them.  I have despatched other half off to nearest big town (about 40 mins away) to large pet/fish store in search of ammonia test.  Do I need anything else?

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (11) - Otocinclus (2) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (7) - Dwarf Gourami (2) - Red Phantom Tetra (5) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Guppy (male) (4) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (6) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Panda Cory (6) - Otocinclus (2) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (6) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (5) - Guppy (male) (4) - Otocinclus (2) - Panda Cory (6) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline jesnon

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2013, 04:41:57 PM »
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Is this your tank without any fish in? If so you need some ammonia too to get a fishless cycle started and a small measuring dropper to use to measure out the dose of ammonia.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Endler's Livebearer (8) - Panda Cory (4) - Cherry Barb (3) - Galaxy Rasbora (6) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Resa

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2013, 04:51:13 PM »
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Hi Jesnon,
yes, it is my tank with no fish, just (real) plants, but I have put filter activator in.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (11) - Otocinclus (2) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (7) - Dwarf Gourami (2) - Red Phantom Tetra (5) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Guppy (male) (4) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (6) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Panda Cory (6) - Otocinclus (2) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (6) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (5) - Guppy (male) (4) - Otocinclus (2) - Panda Cory (6) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2013, 06:33:55 PM »
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Most of those products that claim to add bacteria to the filter don't work. The odd one might speed up growing the ammonia eaters but very very few help with growing the nitrite eaters. Don't expect the one you've used to make the tank safe for fish, you are more likely to find yourself doing a fish-in cycle. At the very least, use a source of ammonia to test how many bacteria were actually alive in the bottle before you get fish.

With a bottle of ammonia solution you also need to make sure it contains no detergent, surfactant or perfume in it. In the UK it is sold as a cleaning product in places like Homebase or other shops that might sell old fashioned cleaning products.

Failing that, you might have to use fish food as the source of ammonia.

Offline Resa

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2013, 07:48:35 PM »
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OK....Himself is back home, sans ammonia.  Of all the trillions of test kits the store had, the only ammonia one was included in a professional marine kit, for the bargain price of 96euros!!!  He did ask but they apparently don't do ammonia test kits at all....don't know what they do about cycling tanks then?
Anyway, looking on the net, we have found a few.  Now, before I order some, are there any to avoid?  Or more accurate ones?  Getting fed up now....wish we'd just bought a llama...they are a lot easier!
On a plus note, I think I have decided on my fish.  I have checked them all out and done my research, and amazingly, they seem to be compatible with each other, my water hardness, P.H., temperature, food requirements etc.....there must be a snag!

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (11) - Otocinclus (2) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (7) - Dwarf Gourami (2) - Red Phantom Tetra (5) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Guppy (male) (4) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (6) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Panda Cory (6) - Otocinclus (2) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (6) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (5) - Guppy (male) (4) - Otocinclus (2) - Panda Cory (6) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


TigzFish

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2013, 08:19:40 PM »
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Anyway, looking on the net, we have found a few.  Now, before I order some, are there any to avoid?  Or more accurate ones?  Getting fed up now....wish we'd just bought a llama...they are a lot easier!

I have only ever used API Ammonia Liquid Test Kit [link] and have been recommended an alternate made by JBL [link].

Although there are a few other brands in the UK, I've only ever seen the two brands mentioned above on sale in local fish stockists.

Offline Sue

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2013, 09:52:27 AM »
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The API tester seems to be the most popular, and I've also heard of Nutrafin.

It is quite possible that your shops have never heard of cycling  ;D Too many shops these days say add this bottle of bacteria and get fish without explaining that you need to monitor ammonia and nitrite levels.
Though to be fair, even the ones that do know the right way to cycle (fishless and fish-in) are probably put off explaining to customers who don't want to know.


Don't assume your filter starter works. If you don't want to try to find ammonia solution, add fish food as though there were fish in the tank and see if you get a reading for ammonia during the next week. If you do, you'll know the starter hasn't worked. If you don't get ammonia, test for nitrite as some bottles seed the ammonia eaters well but not the nitrite eaters, and if your starter does have ammonia eaters but not nitrite eaters, you'll get nitrite showing up. But if there are no ammonia eaters, you won't get nitrite till there are some to make it.


Have you entered your fish list in the community creator to check it out?



Edited to add the word not as indicated by the italics. It makes a bit more sense now.

Offline Resa

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2013, 06:28:11 PM »
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Mmm...ok, I think I've got that.  I'm going to have a look in the supermarket tomorrow as it occurred to me that previously we had remarked that you could buy all sorts of dreadful chemicals straight off the shelf, and I have a vague recollection that ammonia could have been one of them.  Fingers crossed!  We have sent off for the ammonia tester from the internet, so hopefully, that won't take too long to arrive.
One of the shops here, said to put the filter activator in and then leave two clear days before adding fish.  Another said wait a week after adding the activator.

I have entered my fish choice in the community tank...and amazingly, it seems ok!  No warnings or problems indicated.
My final selection (if I can get them) are:

Poecilia Reticulata
Colisa Lalia
Boehikea Fredcochui
Melanotaenia Praecox
Corydoras Panda

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (11) - Otocinclus (2) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (7) - Dwarf Gourami (2) - Red Phantom Tetra (5) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Guppy (male) (4) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (6) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Panda Cory (6) - Otocinclus (2) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (6) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (5) - Guppy (male) (4) - Otocinclus (2) - Panda Cory (6) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Resa

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2013, 06:29:33 PM »
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Obviously, I know that I can't get them all at once, but must stagger it over a few months, water testing results allowing.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (11) - Otocinclus (2) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (7) - Dwarf Gourami (2) - Red Phantom Tetra (5) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Guppy (male) (4) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (6) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Panda Cory (6) - Otocinclus (2) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (6) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (5) - Guppy (male) (4) - Otocinclus (2) - Panda Cory (6) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2013, 07:22:08 PM »
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Resa, I've added a word to my last post so it makes a bit more sense now  :-[


Fish shops are very variable in their advice about bottled bacteria (the filter activator) probably caused by a lack of understanding. The theory is that these bottles contain both ammonia eaters and nitrite eaters. When you add them to the tank, they would like you to think they instantly get to work and will make the tank safe for fish. The problems are several.
First, it is quite possible that all the bacteria in the bottle have died since they were put in there. Bacteria are living organisms which need food and air to survive - neither of these will last long in a sealed bottle.
Second, it is quite possible that the wrong species of nitrite eaters was put in the bottle, though is less common than it used to be, the manufacturers have realised they had the wrong one and changed.
And any living bacteria will be killed if the bottle gets too hot or too cold anywhere on its journey from the factory to your tank.
Then there's the fact that the bacteria live in the biofilm that coats everything in the tank, not free in the water. It takes a while for the bacteria to establish themselves.
Some contain spores which have to 'come to life' to start growing (if they work at all)

The instructions on the packs I have read say to add fish slowly as with a fish-in cycle. Many shops say to add all the fish at once despite what the packs say.


With the reading I have done, there is not one bottled bacteria that has worked every time for everyone who has used it. Some never work, others work some of the time - in the latter case the failures are usually put down to incorrect storage.
The ones that work most often are Dr Tim's One and Only (mainly sold in the USA) and Tetra Safe Start. But they don't work every time. Of course, there may be manufacturers in France that don't sell their products in the UK so I've never heard of them.

The safest thing is to add ammonia to test whether or not the activator has worked. That way, you won't find yourself unexpectedly doing a fish-in cycle with all the water changes that involves. If the ammonia is processed to nitrite and then onto nitrate immediately, good you've found one that does work. If the ammonia doesn't disappear overnight, you'll know it doesn't contain any ammonia eaters - or not very many. If the ammonia does drop quickly but you then get a build up of nitrite, you'll know the activator doesn't contain any nitrite eaters. In either of these cases, you can then proceed slowly with a fish-in cycle if you choose that method, or continue adding ammonia and do a fishless cycle.
There are two 'how to' threads in the 'Filtration and Cycling' section near the bottom of the page with step by step guides to the two methods.


If you choose to do a fishless cycle using ammonia solution dosed to 5ppm, you'll be able to get three quarters of your proposed list at once when the cycle finishes.

Offline Sue

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2013, 07:32:43 PM »
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Just noticed about your fish list - if you get enough of the fish you name, you'll be overstocked. I'm assuming you want at least three guppies (Poecilia) and just the one male Colisa. You need at leat 4 Melanotaenia, with six being better, at least 5 Boehlkea, and 6 pandas.
I've entered all those in the CC (with 60 litre tank and internal filter; the length doesn't change the stocking allowance) and it comes out at 128% stocked.

I would suggest go with either Melanotaenia or Boehlkea, not both.

Offline Resa

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2013, 07:38:08 PM »
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Thanks for that, Sue.  I'll have another read through of the threads on cycling you mentioned.  Hopefully, I'll be able to get the ammonia tomorrow.  In which case, I will be impatient to know my water results on Saturday.
My readings today are:
G.H.     180
K.H.      240
P.H.       7.0
Nitrite      0
Nitrate   2.0

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (11) - Otocinclus (2) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (7) - Dwarf Gourami (2) - Red Phantom Tetra (5) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Guppy (male) (4) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (6) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Panda Cory (6) - Otocinclus (2) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (6) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (5) - Guppy (male) (4) - Otocinclus (2) - Panda Cory (6) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Resa

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2013, 07:50:15 PM »
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Oh poo!  Just when I thought I had it all sorted!  I had put what and how many fish I wanted in the tank builder and it hadn't thrown up any problems.  I have an external filter, so I guess that makes a little difference?  Anyway, I have gone back to the tank builder and changed to the minimum you said and it does now say I'm overstocked.  I had got 7 guppies in my list, 1 colisa, and the minimum indicated in the fish profiles on my other choices.  Oh well...back to the drawing board, although I'm guessing a lot will depend on which ones I can actually get here.
Plus, I'm still undecided on a little female betta as well.  By the way, don't worry...I have absolutely no intention of putting her (if I get one) in with Rafe!

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (11) - Otocinclus (2) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (7) - Dwarf Gourami (2) - Red Phantom Tetra (5) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Guppy (male) (4) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (6) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Panda Cory (6) - Otocinclus (2) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (6) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (5) - Guppy (male) (4) - Otocinclus (2) - Panda Cory (6) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline ColinB

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2013, 08:10:38 AM »
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With your fish selection.... keep an eye on your temperatures. Panda cory's don't like it over about 25oC and Dwarf Gourami's don't like it below around 24oC. This doesn't give you a lot of wiggle room.

Also, in a 60litre tank, the temperature can creep up if you have a really hot Summer, especially if your much further south than we are. I have a 55litre tank and it got up to 28oC in a very hot spell last Summer despite having a fan directed onto the water surface. This would be very uncomfortable for the Panda Cory as they're Peruvian and used to cooler water in the run-off from the Andes.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (7) - Honey Gourami (3) - Ember Tetra (9) - Lemon Tetra (4) - Cherry Barb (1) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Resa

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2013, 12:43:54 PM »
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Anyone want to buy a fish tank???
No, seriously ColinB, thanks for that.  I had looked at their preferred temperatures and was working out the optimum to keep everyone happy.  I will certainly keep an eye on the ambient temperature, as obviously here, it does get very hot.  High 30's are the norm, in fact, I don't know about the fish, it gets too hot for me! I have been known to get home from the shops or an evening out and to just flop in to our splash pool, fully dressed just to cool down!  2am bobbing about has not been unheard of either!  Hopefully, it won't be too hard to keep the tank temperature where I need it as we have got air conditioning.
Managed to get a bottle of ammonia today but it has nothing on it about it's ingredients.  Now, whether that means it's likely to be pure ammonia or not, I'm not sure.  Unfortunately, it's not in a clear bottle.  I'm still waiting for my ammonia test kit, so I can't put any ammonia in yet anyway.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (11) - Otocinclus (2) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (7) - Dwarf Gourami (2) - Red Phantom Tetra (5) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (2) - Otocinclus (2) - Guppy (male) (4) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (6) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) - Panda Cory (6) - Otocinclus (2) - Salt and Pepper Catfish (6) - Dwarf Gourami (1) - Platy (5) - Guppy (male) (4) - Otocinclus (2) - Panda Cory (6) - Platy (3) - Dwarf Rainbowfish (5) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline ColinB

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2013, 12:48:01 PM »
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Bonjour,

Your good to go if you've air conditioning as that'll keep the tank temp nice and stable. My tank temp fluctuates a lot so I have to make sure that there's a big over-lap on the acceptable temps for the fish. Too cold (within reason) means they just slow down, too hot and they visit that great aquarium in the sky! :-\

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Panda Cory (7) - Honey Gourami (3) - Ember Tetra (9) - Lemon Tetra (4) - Cherry Barb (1) - Otocinclus (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: New to fish keeping
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2013, 12:52:15 PM »
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Re the ammonia, if you have a clear bottle decant some in and give it a good shake. Big bubbles that burst quickly (like plain water) is good. Small bubbles that last for ages (foam) is not good.

Don't sniff the ammonia! If you get a lungful it'll make you cough badly.

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