Logistics Of Adding Fish To A Newly Cycled Tank

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Offline sunshine

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logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« on: June 23, 2015, 08:08:30 PM »
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Hi

Been fishless cycling my 2nd tank & had nice surprise to see ammonia = 0ppm & nitrite = 0ppm.  So hopefully not long to go now before it's cycled. 

Anyway, I've got 10 ember tetras moving from my 1st tank to this 100l as the 1st inhabitants.  Then, in future, I hope to also add more ember tetras (prob another 10), about 20 green neon tetras & 6 small cories in the future.  I was just wondering about the logistics of it all as I was reading another post on here about quarantining. 

I thought I could add my original embers to the big tank first and buy about 10 more embers to quarantine in 23l tank as I know they would be ok in there.  If they are all ok after 2 weeks, then they can go into the large tank too.  So I will have all the embers I want in the large tank. 

Then I will gradually add the other types of fish with your advice on timing.  I am worried about quarantining these other fish tho'.  Would it be okay to use the 23l or is that much too small? That is the only tank I have available. 

Any advice will be gratefully appreciated as I want to do this right.   :)


Offline Sue

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2015, 01:47:08 PM »
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There is another option - get all the new fish at once and put them straight into the newly cycled tank. Wait at least two weeks to see if any of them come down with anything and if they don't, then move your current embers in with them. In other words, use the newly cycled tank as a quarantine tank.
If you want to wait before getting some of the new fish, get the rest and do this, then move the current embers over, then use the small tank as a QT when you get the final fish.

When a first tank has finished cycling all the fish are new, you aren't adding a possible disease to an existing tank. Moving the embers over then quarantining new fish a few at a time means you risk your newly grown bacteria going dormant during the quarantine period.

Offline sunshine

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2015, 04:15:50 PM »
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Yay!  I'd love to get all the new fish at once so I'm pleased you suggested that.   :)  I'd thought of that but I remember when I got my 1st tank you advised me to get a few fish & then a few more a few weeks later.  I also saw on the community creator stocking percentages at different stages so thought that's what you had to do.  It would be much easier getting all the fish at once tho!  It will be my first outing on my crutches after my op! ;D  Don't worry, I'll drag hubby along to carry the fish!  ::)

I'll have to check the LFS has all the fish I want tho' as I don't want to be disappointed when I get there.  I must still test the water later and make sure it's all ok.  Exciting times!   :)

Offline Sue

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2015, 05:02:45 PM »
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The previous owner of the site set up the CC and didn't like adding too many fish at once. He preferred to build up slowly. But the whole point of fishless cycling is that you can get all your fish at once as soon as the cycle is finished - though personally I wouldn't go to 100% on the CC immediately, but then I don't stock to 100% even after several years.

Last time the reason I said to start with half a dozen fish, then build up is because when things go wrong on small tanks, they go wrong fast. With 100 litres you have 4 times as much water as in the 23 litre tank so things won't go wrong nearly as fast, if they are going to go wrong. 10 embers in 23 litres is 86% stocked, which is quite a high stocking level if things had gone wrong.
However, just checking with the CC, 10 new embers, 16 neons (green neons are smaller hence the lower number) and 6 salt & pepper cories takes you to 80%, then with the embers you already have it takes you to 100%. I think I'd be inclined to say get 15 green neons, 5 embers and 6 cories (~60%) then when you move your current embers you'd have ~80% with 15 of each of the tetras rather than 20.
As I said, I don't like stocking to 100%.

Offline sunshine

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2015, 05:13:33 PM »
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Ah ok, I understand now!  Thanks for explaining it, Sue.  I agree, I don't want 100% in case things go wrong.


Offline Sanjo

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2015, 07:52:24 PM »
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Sunshine I know  my  tank is a lot smaller than yours, 60 cm 54 ish litres, but once it was cycled I stocked it 100%  because I had all my fish in a smaller nano tank and I needed to transfer them asap
Apart from one of my tiny corys which had an accident I still have all the same fish and I put them all in the 54 litre in April

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2015, 08:12:15 PM »
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...
As I said, I don't like stocking to 100%.

Sue, do you aim for about 80% as a maximum when stocking your own tanks?

I'm stocking gradually, as finances allow, and also because I want to enjoy the tank evolving.
I am hoping that with a good regime of water testing and water changes I will be OK to stock to 100% over the space of three or four months.  But that's only if my tank conditions remain stable.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

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Offline Sue

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2015, 08:28:36 PM »
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I try to keep at or below 80%.
My 180 litre is currently being restocked following losses with the camallanus outbreak a few months ago. It stands at 58% at the moment. I want to get another species for there, taking it to just over 80% but when the last remnants of green neons, embers and microdevario die I won't replace them which will take me back down to around 75%.
The 50 litre is a bit tricky because Boraras aren't in the CC but once I move the fish from the QT it'll be somewhere in the region of 75 to 80% stocked.

And the betta's tank is well understocked with just the one fish in there, plus a small snail.

Offline sunshine

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2015, 08:34:02 PM »
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Sue does the kind of filter change the stocking levels?  I've got an Eheim classic 2213 external filter for this 100l tank.

Offline Sue

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2015, 08:48:14 PM »
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Yes it does. Externals free up space in the tank which the fish can use, and you can also add the volume of the filter into the volume of the tank. The amount of water inside the filter is part of the tank.
The CC also uses standard sized and oversized, with an oversized filter able to support more stocking than standard size for a filter type. But I can't remember how Peter defined oversized. Something at the back of my mind says oversized is a filter rated for a tank at least twice the volume of the one it is in.

The Eheim Classic 2213 is rated for up to 250 litres, making it oversized on a 100 litre tank. In which case you should be fine with your original stocking list. None of the fish in that are large, messy fish, the main limiting factor.

Offline Sanjo

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2015, 07:43:47 AM »
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I wish I had stocked at 80%, which was my intention when we bought the fish.

The bloke in the LFS popped in a couple of free extra WCMM and I didn't know until we were leaving the shop. 

My husband, who I had left in charge of that bit while I went to pay, was dead pleased with himself!!

Now, of course, I have the extra worry about being fully stocked and ammonia building up while I'm on holiday.
I know it's only two extra fish but it's much smaller tank, and if anything happens and one of them dies there isn't any leeway.

I'm definitely not replacing any that die, well not unless it's a lot of them !!

Offline Richard W

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2015, 08:10:30 PM »
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If your filters working OK (maintain it before you go away) there's absolutely no reason for ammonia to build up.

I bought most of my fish from a wholesaler and stocked 7 of my tanks to "100%" in one go. I put the " " because of course most of the fish were young and hence total length wasn't truly 100% at the time, though it is now. I didn't have any problems with fish or water parameters. There is no point in going through the full cycling process and then adding fish a few at a time.

What is the point of having a stocking guide and then saying it is wrong to stock to the limit?

Offline SteveS

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2015, 09:24:55 PM »
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I would not be so completely gung-ho. It is reasonable to assume that the new tank has been set-up from new given what we know about the current MTS outbreak on this site. We also continuously caution that certain species require more than a mature filter to prosper. They require the rest of the tank to mature too. Ottos and shrimp spring to mind, but there others too.

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Offline Sanjo

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2015, 08:41:10 AM »
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Richard I wasn't saying I wouldn't have put all the fish in at the same time because like you say it's one of the reasons for cycling, I'll just never again go to 100%.
For my peace of mind it isn't worth it.
I can get somebody perhaps to come in an feed occasionally (measured out food) while I'm on  a fortnight's hols but asking somebody to hoik out dead or dying fish is another matter.
Thinking that through, it's just occurred to me, do I leave a quarantine tank set up and running in case somebody is brave enough to do that for me Hmmmm

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2015, 09:36:39 AM »
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Fishless-cycling isn't solely about readying your filter to accept your entire fish-stock all at once.

I chose to fishless-cycle my tank, even though I always planned  to stock gradually, because I think fish-in cycling is cruel.

my 2 cents

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Tiger Barb (1) - Cardinal Tetra (17) - Otocinclus (1) - Agassiz's Dwarf Cichlid (2) - Ornamental Snails (50) - Assassin Snail (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Richard W

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2015, 06:29:08 AM »
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I should perhaps have said that my tanks had been set up for over three months before I added fish, giving plenty of time for the plants to become established and spread. I do believe that a more complex ecosystem is more stable and so having a variety of plants, algae, no doubt many different bacteria, and even snails, is a better environment for fish. I did cycle with ammonia, though by squirting some in every few days rather than the careful measuring and testing. The only time I used the measuring method was to test before adding the fish. And of course I made large water changes just before adding the fish, but my subsequent changes have never exceeded 10% at a time.

There's a bit of a myth, I think, that having things like thread algae and snails in a tank, is somehow a sign of poor water quality, while crystal clear water and algae-free glass indicate a healthy tank, but there are many examples on here of people who have apparently "pristine" water conditions yet have still lost many fish. One reason I wanted to avoid adding fish little by little is that it seems by far the major source of disease is newly introduced fish. By adding all of my fish at once, at a time when I knew I would be able to keep a close eye on them, I was able to look out for signs of disease and be ready to treat if necessary. Once you have a disease-free tank, the chances of an outbreak are much lower if you don't add any more fish.

Offline sunshine

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2015, 09:17:47 AM »
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Thanks everyone for your views and advice!  Definite food for thought. 

I'd been checking locally for green neons with no success so I looked at Kesgrave tropicals on eBay as it had been recommended on here & they had the fish I want to get.  I thought well, at least I could get all the fish from one place but when I added the total costs, it's a large sum that I can't really afford at present. 

Also, there are a few slits and small holes in the old internal filter casing in the corner of this tank & I've been trying to work out ways to make these fish friendly with the help of Sanjo  :)  I've now figured that out so need to work on that before buying fish. 

The last issue is I'm on crutches for at least 4 more weeks & trying to do PWC would be a bit hectic.  So I am going to wait 'patiently' before adding fish.  I will continue to enjoy watching the plants grow.    :)

Offline Sue

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2015, 09:48:58 AM »
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What Richard does is known as silent cycling. With this method the plants use virtually all the ammonia made by the fish and very few grow in the filter and other surfaces. He has heavily planted tanks and he waits 3 months before getting fish - in other words he waits for the plants to establish themselves in a tank and start growing nicely so that they will be ready to use all the ammonia his fish can make when they are finally added.

If, like me, you are useless at keeping plants alive or a newbie doesn't want to have live plants as they are "too difficult" then fishless cycling is better than fish-in cycling. But if a newbie has green fingers and is willing to follow Richard's example, that is an equally good method.

Offline Richard W

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2015, 10:44:15 AM »
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I don't really agree that what I did was silent cycling. During the period before I added fish, I used a lot of ammonia - almost two full bottles - throughout the three months. I'm quite sure that the filter would have had the full complement of bacteria the same as in an unplanted tank. The test dose of ammonia disappeared extremely quickly, much faster than the plants could have achieved. The plants did keep the nitrates to reasonable levels so that the pre-fish water changes were a little smaller than otherwise.

Filter plus plenty of plants is a "belt and braces" approach, better to have two cycling systems than one.

Offline Sue

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Re: logistics of adding fish to a newly cycled tank
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2015, 10:50:05 AM »
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I didn't realise you'd used that much ammonia. I agree, true silent cycling wouldn't have used any.

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