Do I Need To Have Surface Agitation For Oxygenation.

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Offline Fiona

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Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« on: March 20, 2016, 09:21:28 PM »
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This might seem a silly question but I have to ask.

I've just added some amazonian frogbit to my intended shrimpery in an attempt to reduce the nitrates. In the past I haven't had much luck growing this plant because of the surface agitation required to improve oxygenation for the fish.

So my question is this. Do I need the filter agitating the surface or can I rely on the plants that are growing to oxygenate the water sufficiently for shrimp?

Offline Sue

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2016, 09:28:06 PM »
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It is possible to keep fish - and shrimps - in a tank with no surface movement provided the tank is understocked. But slow surface movement should not cause too many problems with frogbit.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2016, 09:36:56 PM »
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Its quite hard to adjust the filter, with the outlet trough faced up, even with the venturi control turned low the frogbit is still doing circuits. I guess I need to fiddle. I was hoping photosynthesis would sufficiently oxygenate the water.

Offline Extreme_One

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2016, 09:57:39 PM »
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I've seen people construct a floating plant holder, with suckers and airline, to stop their plants from dancing around the surface of the tank.

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Offline Littlefish

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2016, 10:13:39 PM »
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I've got frogbit in my puffer tank, which has 2 filters and surface movement. It doesn't appear to be a problem. It's the same in the danio/platy/cory tank, which has quite a bit of surface movement. In each case the frogbit has floated around and come to rest against some of the silk plants that reach the surface, with the frogbit roots dangling into the rest of the plants.
 :)

The water lettuce seems to be a bit more delicate though.

Offline Richard W

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2016, 07:17:03 AM »
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Yes, provided the Frogbit can come to rest somewhere it will be OK. Its roots should grow longer and hang down, the longer they get the more they can hang on to other plants etc. It grows well in 7 of my 9 tanks, one of the others has the filter in the hood, while the other has a filter that is more than twice the power required for the tank. The second tank has Zebra danios, WCMM and barbs which all seem to enjoy the fast flow. I've tried Frogbit in these several times but it won't survive in either.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2016, 03:39:23 PM »
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The majority seems to have settled on the opposite side of the filter.

I have used the airline and suction pad to contain it before, I might give it another go. I've never had much luck with frogbit, I'm wondering if the heat from the lighting could damage it? I have some LED lights that need to go in the tank, maybe they'd be a better option.

Offline Richard W

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2016, 04:41:38 PM »
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I don't think the heat from the lights will have any effect, after all it does comes from the tropics. My experience is that it needs to stay still. All floating plants are necessarily  from still or very slow flowing waters, they wouldn't last long in a fast river, they'd end up in the sea! In one of my faster surface flow tanks, they collect behind the spray bar and do well there.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2016, 09:47:04 AM »
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Okey dokey. I guess I'll wait and see what happens I guess.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2016, 01:13:39 PM »
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Instead of 10 large plants I now have a myriad of small ones. This happened last time I tried growing frogbit, eventually it died off. Most annoying.

Offline Richard W

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2016, 01:17:23 PM »
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The small ones should grow into big ones if the conditions are OK. That's how frogbit reproduces. It only takes a few weeks for my tank surface to become covered with it after reducing to just a few plants.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2016, 01:22:33 PM »
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It seems in my case that any movement is too much movement.

Offline Richard W

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2016, 01:27:20 PM »
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I find that the roots of one plant tend to catch on something such as the leaves of a plant growing just under the surface and it comes to a halt. This first plant then acts as a sort of starter, others catch onto it and I end up with a raft of them in one part of the tank which slowly gets bigger and bigger as the plants reproduce.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2016, 08:27:22 PM »
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I've not long planted the tank so there's nothing high enough yet. I've moved the inlet trough so it's facing down, there's nothing in the atm apart from a nerite and I'm sure there'll be enough O2 in there for that.

Its killing me not moving the shrimps in but I really do want the planting sorted first. I might have to replace the dwarf lobelia with a low growing crypt. Patience is a virtue so they say. 'They' must have been really patient buggers!   ::)

Offline Alex_N

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2016, 08:39:16 AM »
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I've seen people construct a floating plant holder, with suckers and airline, to stop their plants from dancing around the surface of the tank.

I did stumble across a floating plant holder that stuck to the inside of the tank  with a suction cup. But I can't remember were I saw it  :-[, I think it was on ebay or amazon.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2016, 12:14:08 PM »
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Thanks Alex, I'll have a look. I have made one with airline and a connector, you could see it from outside the tank which I didnt like

Offline Alex_N

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2016, 04:00:57 PM »
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Offline Fiona

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2016, 04:57:50 PM »
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Ah thank you, I did see those but they wouldn't be big enough.

I've been looking at images and what I bought off ebay seems to be water lettuce although it was listed as amazonian frogbit.  ???

Maybe that's why I'm having such a problem. Littlefish did say she had a problem with water lettuce.

Which raises the question where the heck to I buy true amazonian frogbit? 

Offline Littlefish

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2016, 05:09:49 PM »
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What I have that was purchased as frogbit has round and relatively thick leaves. So thick that you can't really bend a leaf as it would snap. My frogbit seems fine in water with a lot of movement and just collects in a corner and carries on growing.
The plants I purchased as water lettuce are much more delicate. It also has round leaves, but these are smaller and much finer leaves (which are flexible) compared to the frogbit. The water lettuce seem to be doing much better now I've moved them to the sail tank, which has much less water movement.

Offline Fiona

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Re: Do I need to have surface agitation for oxygenation.
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2016, 05:19:44 PM »
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I think I definitely have water lettuce, does the frogbit have glossy leaves?  What I have in the tank has matt bluey green leaves.

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