Bacopa Caroliniana Melting During Fishless Cycle

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Offline Dr Um

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Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« on: August 24, 2017, 08:37:54 PM »
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Hello all,

I'm currently attempting to fishless cycle my first tank (using SafeStart).  Details as follows:

Tank: Fluval Roma 125 (with the heater, U3 filter and light that came with it)
Substrate: Tetra Complete & sand
Live plants
Lights on a timer for 10 hours a day
AquaSafe added

Water parameters (using API Master Test Kit):
 
High pH: 7.4
pH: 7.6
GH: 15.5 (from local water co. website)
Day 6 (Today)
Ammonia: 0.5
Nitrite: 0.5
Nitrate: 40 (this seems normal for local water, unfortunately)

After the tank had been running for a day or two after initial setup, but before starting the cycle, the water went a bit cloudy white, so I removed the 2 pieces of wood that I had in there, emptied as much water as I could, then refilled, conditioned and started again (keeping the wood out).  Within a few days, the Bacopa caroliniana had started melting.  The very newest growth at the tips is light green, but all the other leaves are dark and floppy.  Should I cut my losses, take it out and get something else, or stick with it?  Photo attached.

Thanks in advance!

Offline Sue

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2017, 08:44:27 PM »
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There are two possibilities.

Bacopa might be one of the plants that can't can't cope with more than trace amounts of ammonia. When you have fish, there will only be trace amounts so your bacopa could be OK then.

Or it could be one of the plants that doesn't like being moved - or it is one of the plants that is grown out of water and reacts badly to being submerged. The latter is quite common and the plant dies back then sends out new healthy growth.

I would be inclined to take it out and put it in a bucket of water to see if it recovers, which it should do if sensitivity to ammonia is the problem. If it does, you can replant it once the cycle is finished. Dead and decaying plants decompose to make ammonia which will complicate the cycle even further (see comment re plants in general in your other thread)


Offline Dr Um

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2017, 09:05:26 PM »
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Thanks Sue.  I think I'll probably go for the bucket option.  The plant was submerged in when purchased so I wouldn't think that's the problem.  In fairness, I don't know much about the plant's water requirements, but we do have hard water, which I suppose could also be a problem for some plants.

Offline Matt

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2017, 05:08:07 AM »
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I would advise some caution here as bacopa grows in tropical temperatures. To put it in a bucket of cold water would 'stress' the plant out further. I would suggest continuing with it in its current position. Many plants take a while to adapt to new conditions, especially when their roots have been disturbed. The plant it clearly growing as it has fresh growth.

Lower the ammonia dosing in the tank e.g.. to 1-2ppm and continue the cycle would be my advice and stock more gradually than the 'everything at once' approach. You will likely be absolutely fine if the plants are growing in any case as they are eating ammonia.

Before you get fish you can replant it, removing the dead areas as you do.

Offline Dr Um

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2017, 07:30:02 PM »
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Thanks for the advice, Matt.  I've kept it in for now, as there does appear to be even more new growth coming through today, but I'll keep an eye on things.

I wasn't planning to stock the tank completely right from the off anyway, so I'll start slow, monitor the water and build up when it seems safe to do so.

Offline Sue

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2017, 07:46:22 PM »
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If you intend stocking slowly, it is OK to drop the ammonia doses to 1ppm which would be better for the plants.
3 ppm was chosen as that is more than a tankful of fish make in 24 hours; 3 ppm will grow enough bacteria enough to deal with the waste from a tankful of fish plus some spare. If you stock less than a tankful initially then add more fish a few at a time, you need less bacteria at the end of cycling. As you add more fish, provided you don't add too many at one go, the bacteria will catch up very quickly.
And with lots of well growing live plants, you won't need to grow too many bacteria anyway as the plants will use most of the ammonia.

Offline Dr Um

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2017, 11:00:20 AM »
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That's good to know, thanks Sue.  Going to add more ammonia today, as it's now dropped right down and nitrites are up. 

I'd ultimately like to have Cherry Barbs, X-Ray Tetra and either Bronze or Three-Lined Cory (we have hard, alkaline water).  Is there one of these that would be the best to start with?  Not sure if any of them stand out as being more hardy and therefore perhaps more suited to being the first in there!

Offline fcmf

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2017, 11:57:36 AM »
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It would be worth checking your proposed fish against the profiles on www.seriouslyfish.com as they give precise information on what each species requires, including appropriate water parameters such as hardness (and temperature, etc). This http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/calculators/hardness-conversion will let you convert your water hardness into the PPM that Seriously Fish often go by. If you find that your proposed fish are not appropriate for your water hardness, then there are a couple of options: you could either choose fish which are more suitable (use http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish-profiles and then Seriously Fish for more specific/detailed info) or you may wish to consider "reverse osmosis" to help adjust the water in line with your fishes' requirements if your heart is absolutely set on fish which require softer water.

Generally, cories ought to be added later down the line when the tank is more mature and has developed a biofilm eg 9+ months.


Offline Sue

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2017, 02:13:48 PM »
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The screenshot of the water company figures in your other thread give the hardness as 108.9 mg/l calcium. Converting that to the two units used in fishkeeping, your hardness is 15.2 dH (aka German deg) and 272 ppm.

Cherry barbs are fine at 36 to 357 ppm
X-ray tetras 2 to 20 dH (though Seriously Fish comments that soft water is best for spawning them)
Bronze cories - 36 to 268 ppm
Three lines cory - 1 to 12 dH.

Your water is a bit on the hard side for cories I'm afraid. If you are particularly keen to have cories, you would need to add some RO water as fcmf suggests. The time to do this is before you get fish. It wouldn't need much RO water to get the hardness down a bit but I would suggest getting a GH tester. You would need to check how much RO water gives a hardness low enough for the cories without spending a lot of money on more RO water than you need.
You would have to do water changes with tap:RO mixed in the same proportions and make sure there is some RO water on standby at all times just in case you ever need to do an emergency water change.

Offline Dr Um

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2017, 08:26:54 PM »
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Thanks Sue and fcmf.  All the research I've done has suggested the Cherry Barbs and X-Ray Tetra should be fine.  Bit gutted to hear that the cories don't like hard water.  I've been using as many websites as I can (including Seriously Fish) as it appears that information can be inconsistent across sites, and many of the sites I've been on have said that pH 6-8 and dH up to 20 dH is fine for bronze and three-line cories.  I've lost count of the number of times I've come to some sort of ideal long-term fish stocking plan, only to be confounded by data from a new website!

Offline Sue

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2017, 09:07:17 PM »
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I only believe information on 2 sites. The main one is Seriously Fish as that contains a lot more information and is written by experts. The other is FishBase which is written by and for scientists but has less information than SF of use to fish keepers.
Though Fishbase gives hardness 5 to 19 dH for both cories, which goes higher than SF  ???

There are so many sites out there that have rubbish on them, which is why I stick to the ones that are known to have correct information.

Offline MarquisMirage

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2017, 01:00:12 AM »
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I've not been on in a while so please excuse my late response.  The recommended water hardness for bacopa caroliniana is 71.43 - 142.86ppm so if the plant was initially grown in this hardness range putting it into 272ppm is most likely what's causing the melting (due to carbonate salts).  Stick with it to see if it will adapt as many plants will (depending on your lighting setup maybe increase it as bacopa thrives in med-high lighting) but be prepared to look for an alternative.  Off the top of my head I think vallisneria does well in hard water.

Offline Dr Um

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Re: Bacopa caroliniana melting during fishless cycle
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2017, 01:22:34 PM »
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Thanks for the advice.  If you see my other post, you'll see that I've now removed it though!  I cleaned out the entire tank due to diatoms taking over, and there was no way I would have been able to get these plants back in, they were in such a state.  I replaced them with Cryptocoryne wendtil; at least the leaves are bigger and easier to deal with if they melt too!  I'll definitely look out for some vallisneria though - it was on my initial plant wish list, but the shop didn't have it unfortunately.

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