Unknown Fish Death

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Offline D1976p

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Unknown fish death
« on: February 05, 2014, 10:14:03 PM »
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Hi need some advice,I have a 278 litre tank which I've had for a few years,I have a large external filter,the problem is last Friday I added 2 patties and 2shrimp,on Sunday 1 of the patties died and the 2 shrimp and 2 of my original fish, a German ram and a balloon Molly,have done a water check and everything is fine,on Monday I lost 2 balloon Molly's,I went back the the fish shop and they tested the water and found nothing wrong,everything was ok on Tuesday but tonight I've lost 5,4 month old platties and the plattie that I got from the shop on Friday, have done a 30 ltr water change on Sunday and 40 ltr water change on Monday,tonight I emptied the water from the filter and filled it up with the tank water and added 10 ltr of fresh water with tap safe added to it to the tank,have tested the water every night and water is ok,since Sunday have now lost 11 fish and 2 shrimp,I have 1 pleco,1golden nugget ,1cory,3 Molly's and 7,4 month old patties left,up until adding these recent fish didn't have any problems,fish look fine with no apparent  heath problems,any help much appreciated,many thanks

Offline Sue

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Re: Unknown fish death
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2014, 08:22:45 AM »
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In a tank that size with the number of fish you already had, adding 2 new platies and 2 shrimp should have not made any impact at all on the water conditions. There would have been only a tiny % increase in the bioload so the filter would have coped easily.
Did you do anything else to the tank - new decor, new plants? Did anyone use some sort of spray near the tank, and it's co-incidence that the new fish were bought at the same time? Or use an air freshener, do any painting?

If not, that just leaves some type of disease as the cause of the fish deaths, though what disease it could be to strike so quickly, I don't know. The fact that the dead fish look fine suggests an internal infection. The problem is that there are few meds available in the UK to treat internal bacterial infections without a vet's prescription. And I don't think there is anything that treats viral infections, with or without a prescription.

I would do a much larger water change than you have been doing, more like 50% minimum (not an easy task with that tank size). You could try using an anti-internal bacteria infection - the way things have been going it shouldn't do any extra harm. Interpet make such a med, and as eSHa 2000 claims to treat dropsy, that might also work.

I'm sorry I can't be more help, it must be very upsetting watching all those fish die.

I would give serious thought to getting a quarantine tank, and keep all new fish (and shrimps) in that for at least two weeks, preferably four.

Offline Richard W

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Re: Unknown fish death
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2014, 09:33:05 AM »
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My difficulty with this problem is that the shrimps died as well as the fish. I can't think of a disease which would affect both.
One possibility lies in your gravel, or whatever you have in the bottom of your tank. It's possible for this to become anaerobic. Food or fish waste in the gravel, especially if it hasn't been cleaned sufficiently, can rot and produce hydrogen sulphide gas, which will dissolve in the water and is extremely toxic to fish. It would kill them without any outward size of disease. I believe shrimp are particularly susceptible. If you stir some of your gravel and bubbles come up, or it is black underneath the surface, this might be a possible cause. It's more likely if you have a deep gravel layer and few or no plants. Treatment would involve a lot of gravel cleaning and big water changes.
It's the only thing I can suggest.

Offline Sue

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Re: Unknown fish death
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2014, 09:47:40 AM »
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I didn't pay much attention to the death of the shrimp simply because of problems I had last year. I bought batches of cherry shrimps from three different shops and every single one of them died, some straight away some after a couple of weeks. I know from personal experience that shrimps dying is not unknown.


I have read elsewhere that the effects of these pockets of gas are a fishkeeping myth, they don't actually kill fish. Is there any definite proof (as opposed to hearsay) one way or the other?


Offline Richard W

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Re: Unknown fish death
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2014, 10:43:54 AM »
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It's possible that the shrimps dying was just a coincidence, but I don't much believe in coincidences. Everything dies for a reason, including shrimps. As you note, it's difficult to think of a fish disease that could kill several fish so quickly although the fact that these fish died so soon after the introduction of new fish does suggest a disease. However, I don't think a chemical cause should be ruled out. I assume the shop would only have tested for the basic ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/pH perhaps?

Hydrogen sulphide certainly can be formed in an anaerobic substrate. In small amounts it's normally converted to sulphates by other bacteria in the water. It certainly can be a problem in ponds, resulting in mass fish kills. But there are all sorts of other bacteria in an anaerobic substrate which can produce a cocktail of chemicals. I had an interesting experience with an old deep substrate which I won't go into here. Never rule anything out.

Whatever, I think it's certainly worth taking a couple of minutes to check the substrate, especially  if it has been in place for some time, though bigger water changes must, as you say, be the first priority.

Offline Sue

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Re: Unknown fish death
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2014, 11:18:18 AM »
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I also suspect a chemical reason which is why I asked about sprays, air fresheners etc, and any new decor which could have been contaminated.
Because I don't have plants growing in the substrate I have fairly shallow sand in all my tanks so I have no experience of nasty things that grow in deep substrate.

We need D1976p to come back and tell us of anything he's done to the tank or in the same room as the tank.

Offline D1976p

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Re: Unknown fish death
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2014, 06:37:31 PM »
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Hi thanks for the replies,the only change to the tank was 3 weeks beforehand i was growing my own brine shrimp for the baby fish and i stopped doing this about 1 1/2 weeks ago because when i was feeding them i was noticing there was quite a few unhatched eggs in the water,i noticed them in the syphon tube aswell when was cleaning gravel,there is nothing in the room like fresheners or sprays,I clean the gravel weekly when I do my water change,there is very little dirt that comes from it when I clean it,the shrimp may have been eaten by the pleco so not really sure if they died or not,the man in the shop said they should be ok,he has them in his tank with a pleco and there ok but the pleco might eat them,I did not find the shrimp when I removed the dead fish on the Sunday,i have just got in from work and all is ok tonight,I will do a 50% water change tonight,can't see any visible signs on the fish,I did add a piece of bog wood to the tank when I got the pleco before Christmas not sure i that has anything to do with this,thanks dave

Offline Sue

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Re: Unknown fish death
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2014, 07:43:53 PM »
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Shrimps are expert at hiding so if you haven't found any bodies they may still be alive - though as you say, they could have been eaten. And I would include the mollies and platies among the shrimp eating suspects.
They are also good at escaping, another possibility. Shrimps will climb out of a tank if there is something not to their liking.
Something about shrimps to bear in mind - they shed their skins as they grow and leave empty shells behind. They look like hollow shrimps. If yours are still alive, don't worry if you find these shells, they aren't dead shrimps. Shrimps usually turn pink when they die.

If you clean the gravel every week (do you clean right to the bottom of it?) that lessens the chances of it being something nasty escaping from there, but Richard may have suggestions of things that can accumulate even with cleaned gravel.

A nice big water change will help. If there is something in the tank that will dilute it, lowering the likelihood of it killing more fish.

Offline D1976p

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Re: Unknown fish death
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2014, 08:28:33 PM »
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Hi thanks for the reply,when I clean the gravel every week I get right to the bottom and every month I remove the plants and ornaments and clean under them,have done a 50% water change so hope that helps thanks dave

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