Established Tank - Issues For A Long Time

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Offline Lee2Gould

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Established tank - issues for a long time
« on: February 06, 2017, 12:26:03 PM »
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Hi,
I was hoping I could get some input or advice a problem I’ve had for a long time now. Basically, I’ve had a tank (180 ltr) for over 5 years now and unfortunately I don’t have many fish in there as fish I’ve added such as Rams, Cardinal Tetras, Pygmy Corys and a few others have not survived. I do have Harlequin Rasboras and Flying Foxes which have been fine in there. Obviously throughout all of this time I have continually tested the water and taken many samples to different pet shops and ‘experts’ who have all been equally stumped and advised everything in the water tests are absolutely fine, encouraging me to add more fish, which is something I’m not willing to do until I find some sort of solution to this problem.

Water is as follows:
PH 7.1 (will sometimes drop a little of an evening when the lights go off) – the only concern I had with this is the tap water is more 6.8 or 6.9 but something in the tank has taken this up but then always stays a steady 7.1
Gravel all tested fine – I have in the past replaced this just to ensure that’s not the problem
Amonia – 0ppm
Nitrite – 0ppm
Nitrate – 5.0ppm

I’m close to giving up to be honest as no one has figured out what this is. My only conclusion is that it’s the actual tank because I’m completely stumped. I appreciate this is not easy to diagnose over text but if anyone has anything to add that’d be great and much appreciated.

Thanks

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Flying Fox (2) - Bolivian Ram (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Assassin Snail (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Richard W

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2017, 01:29:01 PM »
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Very difficult to say what is wrong, but rams and Pygmy cories seem to cause problems for many people, rams are heavily inbred to get the colour forms and are therefore genetically very weak. There are also many reports from people here, including very experienced fish keepers, of Pygmy cories dying out for no obvious reason. Rams and Cardinals do need softer water than you have, perhaps, though Cardinals have lived OK for years in my water which is pH 7.4 and quite hard so         ........ who knows?

I would advise you to get some more "cheap and cheerful" fish which are known to be tough and resilient and see how they go. I keep to the easy ones myself, and they are just as attractive.

If your water tests are correct, then that is unlikely to be the cause.

I also advise people to try and get plants growing well, as they do have many beneficial effects. Do you have live plants in your tank?

Offline Lee2Gould

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2017, 01:46:40 PM »
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Thanks for your reply. I do have plants but they hardly flourish in the tank. I'm currently adding a number of fertilising products in an attempt to encourage more growth with them.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Flying Fox (2) - Bolivian Ram (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Assassin Snail (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Richard W

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2017, 01:58:21 PM »
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Getting plants to grow in pure gravel, if that's what you have, is difficult. Fertiliser tablets in the gravel are a better bet than adding liquid fertiliser to the water. The easiest way is to get bogwood and tie plants to it, such as Java Fern, Java Moss, Hornwort, Anubias and Hygrophila all of which grow very well like that.

Offline Sue

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2017, 02:09:51 PM »
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Do you have very hard water? I know it is unlikely with your pH but I need to check  :)

As for the pH, the tap water pH - is that freshly run or water that has been allowed to stand overnight? It is common for the pH to go up slightly in tap water that has been allowed to stand due to carbon dioxide gassing out (carbon dioxide dissolves to make a weak acid which pushes the pH down a bit. When it gasses off the pH rises).


I can vouch for java fern, anubias and bolbitis growing well on wood - or any other decor you may have in the tank. I cannot grow plants that are rooted in the substrate but those that grow attached to decor grow well for me. I just use Seachem Flourish (with nothing else in the name) as fertiliser.

Offline Lee2Gould

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2017, 02:26:04 PM »
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I have the clay balls to add to the gravel and have also got the liquid fertiliser. They do seem to steadily grow but was hoping to boost it a little.
Re: the tap water - What was a little strange was the PH remained at 6.8 both immediately and 24 hours later (this includes adding dechlorinater). When testing the tank water when the lights had been off for a while it looked around 6.9 but when the lights are on it was 7.1. I have however only tested the ph when the lights are off once quite recently.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Flying Fox (2) - Bolivian Ram (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Assassin Snail (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline MarquisMirage

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2017, 05:11:44 PM »
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Hi Lee, what is your water change regime?

Offline Lee2Gould

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2017, 06:10:57 PM »
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It's once a week or at least every other week.

Just to add to this (coincidentally) this evening one of my rasboras has a very slight white film over it, not very noticeable and also staying at the top of the tank.

Other fish I'd lost didn't really show symptoms just seemed to be fine one day and not the next.

I'm all out of ideas and can only see a complete start over at some point in the future

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Flying Fox (2) - Bolivian Ram (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Assassin Snail (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2017, 06:55:55 PM »
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How much water do you change?

Your low nitrate does suggest your water change regime is OK, though I need to check about the tester you use. Is it a strip or a liquid one? And if it is a liquid one, the instructions will tell you to shake one of the bottles before using it - do you shake it according to the instructions, or even better, more than they say?

Offline Lee2Gould

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2017, 07:50:19 PM »
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Thanks for all replies.

It's a 180ltr tank and I change about 30ltrs each time.

I have 2 test kits, one was relatively cheap and I was advised to get the JBL one so got that too. To be honest both show the same results. In addition to this I've taken the water into a couple of different places just to make sure I'm not making any silly mistakes and their results show fine too.

Quite frustrating that there's not an obvious thing I'm doing wrong so I could put it right.

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Flying Fox (2) - Bolivian Ram (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Assassin Snail (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline fcmf

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2017, 08:04:02 PM »
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Sorry to read about this. Not sure that there's anything I can add but I just wanted to check if this has been the situation throughout the 5 years? I'm guessing it has been but thought best to check in case the tank had been fine for the first few years but then the situation changed.

Moss balls are also good in the tank - I have a few and, apart from one which I think rolled up against the heater and is slightly discoloured in one place, they seem to be indestructible. I wonder if it might be worth giving something like a catappa leaf a try too?

Offline Lee2Gould

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2017, 08:21:08 PM »
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Yes I've struggled with quite a few fish for the 5 years or so. The harlequin rasboras have been in since day one. Many other types have come and gone.

I'm willing to try adding anything but won't add any more fish.

Cheers

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Flying Fox (2) - Bolivian Ram (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Assassin Snail (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Matt

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2017, 09:39:53 PM »
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Have you tested your water hardness as @Sue has suggested?

Offline Lee2Gould

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2017, 10:03:31 PM »
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That's been tested too. The KH was 0 wh8ch I thought may have been a problem I. E. Could affect the ph but was advised that's fine.

Is 0 KH something that could cause issues?

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Flying Fox (2) - Bolivian Ram (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Assassin Snail (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline fcmf

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2017, 10:17:01 PM »
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Your very soft water ought to favour the fish you've had. However, it may be that you should increase it a little so that there is some KH. If you can get some Tufa/limestone rock pieces, it may bring your KH up to 2. I keep some in my tank.

Offline Lee2Gould

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2017, 10:23:47 PM »
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Ok thanks. It could be worth a try. I do have quite a lot of lava rock in there, should that be helping or doesn't that do anything?

Cheers

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Flying Fox (2) - Bolivian Ram (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Assassin Snail (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Matt

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2017, 06:27:19 AM »
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The lava rock won't help unfortunately as it contains no calcium carbonate which is what will raise your hardness.  This is the same thing that causes limescale on your kettle/taps.  This will stabilise the pH of your aquarium and aid the fishes bodily regulation.

Alternative would be to use a SeaChem buffer as per this useful article (http://kh-aquarium.blogspot.co.uk) which also explains why it is important for fish health:
Quote
increase resistance to degenerate diseases by lowering the acidity in the body. This will help with prevention of ich, fungus, and general “wear and tear” in your fish. Calcium also helps in healing and stress, and without proper calcium levels healing may be difficult or impossible.

Offline Lee2Gould

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2017, 10:45:09 AM »
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Great. Definitely worth trying and hopefully something I can track by continually tracking the KH.

Many thanks

A Selection of Fish in my Fish Community Creator Tanks
Harlequin Rasbora (8) - Flying Fox (2) - Bolivian Ram (2) - Ram / Butterfly Cichlid (2) - Assassin Snail (2) -
Note: The user may not necessarily own these fish, these are tanks that they may be building or researching for stocking purposes


Offline Sue

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2017, 02:05:55 PM »
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It's a 180ltr tank and I change about 30ltrs each time.

I have 180 litre tank and I change somewhere between 60 and 80 litres a week.

Your very low KH would be expected to cause a pH crash as you are doing such small water changes - I have KH 3 and I need to do water changes of at 30% to stop my pH crashing - that has happened to me when I didn't change enough water.


With such a low KH I assume you also have low GH, which is the important one for fish, though the fish species you names all like soft water so they should be fine.

Offline Richard W

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Re: Established tank - issues for a long time
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2017, 02:45:50 PM »
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These hardness values sound very weird, considering your pH. Were they from tests or from your water company web site? I'd check both personally, just in case.

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